Adding 2-Stroke oil to Diesel

[Krankin]

We don't have an "EPA" in Australia so I'm not sure which Govt Agency you are referring to.

Engine lubricating oils are not designed for combustion - combustion oils are. There are quite a number of technical differences, but you would need to be a MUCH smarter man than me to understand, let alone explain the differences. If two stroke oils could not "burn" cleanly, then two stroke engines such as the Evinrude ETEC and Mercury OPTIMAX would not have US CARB approval for sale and use in some of the markets they do. There is some research out there showing them (two strokes - burning oil) to have cleaner tailpipe emissions than four stroke outboards... But back to the point...

Oils are not oils. I can't speak for what anyone else is burning - nor do I claim to. Never have, never will.

I'm interested in your claim though, that "by Gov/EPA laws it illegal".

This kind of thing is legislated at a federal level - you'll have to take my word for that. But as already stated, Australia doesn't have an Agency called the "EPA" - so which agency is it you are referring to, and please - point me to the relevant legislation, policy or statement which backs up your claim (relevant to Australia please).

Yes we do have an EPA, in Vic anyway and
Krafty made the correction.

Sulphur was removed for pollution purposes was it not.
By who..the Fed gov as you say, is it not...same as you questioned me about..i wrote previously gov/epa.

so is it not then illegal to be adding sulphur to your fuel?

And two stroke oils are made to lube the cylinder, conrod bearings, crankshaft bearings, pistons and rings in the absence of a 'crankcase full of oil, though i grant you they are differing to straight engine oils, they still are of the same raw stock.

And if you care to read back in this thread or look it up yourself youll find that engine oils do get burnt in the chamber "controlled amounts' so the additition of extra oil is not welcome.

 

[Matt76]

 

[ants_oz]

Yes we do have an EPA, in Vic anyway and
Krafty made the correction.

Sulphur was removed for pollution purposes was it not.
By who..the Fed gov as you say, is it not...same as you questioned me about..i wrote previously gov/epa.

so is it not then illegal to be adding sulphur to your fuel?

And two stroke oils are made to lube the cylinder, conrod bearings, crankshaft bearings, pistons and rings in the absence of a 'crankcase full of oil, though i grant you they are differing to straight engine oils, they still are of the same raw stock.

And if you care to read back in this thread or look it up yourself youll find that engine oils do get burnt in the chamber "controlled amounts' so the additition of extra oil is not welcome.

All due respect, but I tend not to re=respond to edited posts once I've already posted my reply. Gets too messy.

Whether or not it's illegal to add sulphur to your fuel - I don't know. If you can point me to the legal words then all good. Otherwise it's just hearsay and nothing more. When people have asked me about various things - such as bullbar laws, tyre laws etc - I've been kind enough to point them to the relevant legislation so that they have the facts to look at, not just my opinion. All I'm asking is the same courtesy and honestly I don't think it's too much to ask.

You may be correct - I am not disputing your point - I am just saying that you need facts to back it up. You see we have a conundrum here - lots of words have been bandied around by lots of people saying "no one has any evidence, no one has any facts". I agree - we need facts. Here is an example - a claim has been made that adding two stroke oil to diesel fuel is illegal - so where are the facts to back up that claim? If you make the claim, you back up that claim with facts. Up to you to either back up the claim with facts or withdraw the claim - your call of course.

I know a thing or two about consumption of engine oils during the lifecycle of an internal combustion engine (I'm a mechanic by trade) - it's a by product of the fact that you can't effective scrape all the oil from the walls of the cylinder on the down stroke of the piston, plus the fact you will always get some leakage of oil through the valve stems no matter how hard you try...

And yes, I know the design purpose of two stroke oils Regardless, the oil gets combusted - and is engineered to be cleanly combusted.

Krankin - interesting that you won't use two stroke oil in your fuel - fair enough, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, however you do mention about using "...mineral/chemical compounds to gain lubricity...". Isnt oil a mineral ánd chemical compound? I had to ask a simple, yet stirring question

Anyway, keep the good debate going I say - all good fun. Lots of good opinion and good points coming forward.

 

[Jason]

Increasing lubricity = reducing wear = increasing engine longevity. Fact.

Let's not begin talking about Cetane Boosters or Emulsifiers, I don't want this discussion distracted in any way.

The purpose of this research was to determine the ability of multiple diesel fuel additives to replace the vital lubricity component in ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel) fuel.

I think that speaks for itself. Please don't try to deviate from the initial discussion by breaking this into 'fuel delivery components' and 'engine'. We are talking about improving the fuel's lubricity.

moreover, none of the tested 'improvers' are infact 'Victa oils' as we are testing amongst ourselves,

Can you explain 'Victa Oils'? The item in the study that is of relevance to us is #7:

7)Super Tech Outboard 2-cycle TC-W3 engine oil
Unconventional (Not ULSD compliant, may damage 2007 or newer systems)
HFRR 474, 162 micron improvement
200:1 ratio
16.64 oz/tank
$1.09/tank

As far as I can see it's almost exactly what some people here are using? They are both the highest specced 2T oils in the rating system they are attached to.

NMMA TC-W3 – two cycle water-cooled, third generation. TC-W3 obsoletes TC-W & TC-WII. Oils with this spec do not use metal based additives, and are ashless.
API TC – only API spec established for two cycle engines. It regulates lubricity, detergency, ash content & pre-ignition. Oils with this spec are typically using metal based, ash producing additives.
JASO FA – original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.
JASO FB – increased lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking
requirements over FA.
JASO FC – lubricity and initial torque requirements same as FB, however far higher detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FB.

An independent research firm in Texas was hired to do the laboratory work. The cost of the research was paid for voluntarily by the participating additive manufacturers. Declining to participate and pay for the research were the following companies: Amsoil and Power Service. Because these are popular products it was determined that they needed to be included in the study. These products were tested using funds collected by diesel enthusiasts at “dieselplace.com”.

 

[Krankin]

Jason,

By 'Victa oils' i mean 2 stroke oil.

if you want to separate fuel sytems and engines fine.

Re: No 7...claerly states..Non comliant and no good for '07 and beyond.

and I'll stay out of it as you want to keep it only regarding fuel systems..




Antzoz,

you dont have to take in anything i write, i dont give a toss.

But for someone to say "you'll have to take my word for it"

and then question my knowledge..thats a bit rich.

As for additives, some are ok by manufactures' and at this stage warranty is my concern as i have mentioned before.

you can use all the oil you like, good luck,

as Matt76 implies, i dont care for this subject anymore,
and as Jason wants it kept to Fuel systems only ,
thats it for VICTA OILS from me.

 

[Krankin]

There's NO GOD!

 

[Jason]

Jason,

By 'Victa oils' i mean 2 stroke oil.

OK, cool.

if you want to separate fuel sytems and engines fine.

I don't really want the thread to split now, all along we have been talking about improving ULSD diesel's lubricity after the removal of sulphur.

Re: No 7...claerly states..Non comliant and no good for '07 and beyond.

Agreed, but so did another commercially available diesel additive. And in their conclusions they state..........

Products 1 through 4 were able to improve the unadditized fuel to an HFRR score of 460 or better. This meets the most strict requirements requested by the Engine Manufacturers Association.
Products 1 through 9 were able to improve the unadditized fuel to an HFRR score of 520 or better, meeting the U.S. diesel fuel requirements for maximum wear scar in a commercially available diesel fuel.

.........of which product 7 falls into. Whose those bracketed comments belong to, I don't know? Fuel manufacturers perhaps?

and I'll stay out of it as you want to keep it only regarding fuel systems..

Not at all, all opinions are welcomed.

 

[ants_oz]

Jason,
Antzoz,

you dont have to take in anything i write, i dont give a toss.

But for someone to say "you'll have to take my word for it"

and then question my knowledge..thats a bit rich.

As for additives, some are ok by manufactures' and at this stage warranty is my concern as i have mentioned before.

you can use all the oil you like, good luck,

I agree - I have implied a double standard. What I have implied is that I have asked people to take my word that I have a high level of experience in the development of policy and legislation (and attribution of responsibility) between federal and state/territory jurisdiction. Because this is such a complex area of law, I will happily withdraw my "take my word for it" comment in respect of the above.

Will you please provide the information I asked for though? That is, definitive information which states clearly that additives, additional sulphur content, oil, whatever (whatever it is you asserted - I can't be bothered reading back to look it up - you were the one that made the claim after all) are illegal to add to fuel here in Australia? You have said that it is illegal, and I've asked you a couple of times now to prove it. Am I being unreasonable? If I am, then please tell me and I will apologise for being unreasonable.

And so we're crystal clear on my reasons for wanting to know whether it's legal or not to add oil to diesel in Aus - I'm pretty keen on doing the right thing (you might have picked up on that). If it's illegal - I'll stop doing it. I don't knowingly break the law,simple as that. But I like to see the paperwork for myself too...

 

[Ridgie]

Geez - I went bush in my Nav today - had a great time - looks like a bit of typing was done by some. Keep at it fellas.

 

[Krankin]

I agree - I have implied a double standard. What I have implied is that I have asked people to take my word that I have a high level of experience in the development of policy and legislation (and attribution of responsibility) between federal and state/territory jurisdiction. Because this is such a complex area of law, I will happily withdraw my "take my word for it" comment in respect of the above.

Will you please provide the information I asked for though? That is, definitive information which states clearly that additives, additional sulphur content, oil, whatever (whatever it is you asserted - I can't be bothered reading back to look it up - you were the one that made the claim after all) are illegal to add to fuel here in Australia? You have said that it is illegal, and I've asked you a couple of times now to prove it. Am I being unreasonable? If I am, then please tell me and I will apologise for being unreasonable.

And so we're crystal clear on my reasons for wanting to know whether it's legal or not to add oil to diesel in Aus - I'm pretty keen on doing the right thing (you might have picked up on that). If it's illegal - I'll stop doing it. I don't knowingly break the law,simple as that. But I like to see the paperwork for myself too...

Time to get over it.
Your police/law/mechanic,etc experience does'nt intimidate me,
and i dont care for such attitude.


Tit for tat....You say there's no such EPA,

I know as all Vics know there is an EPA.

Show me where 'I' state its illegal to add Oil/Additives to your fuel.



Maybe in the ACT you have lax laws and in Vic we have different laws.

Here we have emissions laws that the EPA govern, obviously the ACT doesnt care about emissions, i dont care.

Here if you have to present your vehicle for emissions testing at an EPA centre you will be found out if using additives, simple as that.

End of subject.

 

[Krankin]

Geez - I went bush in my Nav today - had a great time - looks like a bit of typing was done by some. Keep at it fellas.

... your in the wrong thread mate.

 

[Ridgie]

Nope.................sarcasm!

 

[ants_oz]

Time to get over it.
Your police/law/mechanic,etc experience does'nt intimidate me,
and i dont care for such attitude.

...
Show me where 'I' state its illegal to add Oil/Additives to your fuel.
...

And your terse posts that can be a little short on information and include little in the way of fact, but that doesn't intimidate me either

All I have ever tried to do here is provide information, and where other people - such as yourself - have made claims, I have as politely as possible asked them to back up those claims with fact. If that intimidates you, if my ability to string a few words together intimidates you, I can't help that and it doesn't embarrass me to say so.

If I have shown a bad attitude in this thread - please show me where. Please do. I will gladly apologise. In fact, please bring it to the attention of the Admin. You will find me very open to correcting myself for when I am wrong or where I have exhibited poor behaviour.

Back on page 14 of this thread you wrote:

"Also as users of Victa oil additive, are all using the same oil?,
some using normal sulphur content, some using low sulphur content,
nevertheless ADDING MORE SULPHUR to the engine,
which brings me to the point of, by Gov/EPA laws it illegal."

Those are your words, not mine. Now admittedly they are a little difficult to decipher, but appear to state that adding additional sulphur to diesel fuel is illegal. All I have asked you to do is show us where it states that. Is that honestly too much to ask?

Anyway, on with the show.

 

[Krankin]

And your terse posts that can be a little short on information and include little in the way of fact, but that doesn't intimidate me either

All I have ever tried to do here is provide information, and where other people - such as yourself - have made claims, I have as politely as possible asked them to back up those claims with fact. If that intimidates you, if my ability to string a few words together intimidates you, I can't help that and it doesn't embarrass me to say so.

If I have shown a bad attitude in this thread - please show me where. Please do. I will gladly apologise. In fact, please bring it to the attention of the Admin. You will find me very open to correcting myself for when I am wrong or where I have exhibited poor behaviour.

Back on page 14 of this thread you wrote:

"Also as users of Victa oil additive, are all using the same oil?,
some using normal sulphur content, some using low sulphur content,
nevertheless ADDING MORE SULPHUR to the engine,
which brings me to the point of, by Gov/EPA laws it illegal."

Those are your words, not mine. Now admittedly they are a little difficult to decipher, but appear to state that adding additional sulphur to diesel fuel is illegal. All I have asked you to do is show us where it states that. Is that honestly too much to ask?

Anyway, on with the show.

Clearly there isnt a GOD..


Officer Ants,
Maybe a defamation of character is in order as you continually head down the path of making me a liar,and,
in typical canberran political fashion for your own gain hide the facts with typical BS and spin.
Spose theres not much more to life in the ACT...then again there's Porn and Crackers...essential for a balanced upbringing and to overcome boredom related to canberran life.

As i have explained on several occasions, though not to your intellectual standards, and tried to end this banter so as to please some others that have asked kindly,
you continually insist.

I'm at a loss what you dont comprehend here,
but you have answered your own question to me already and for the last time on this matter (as i will plead INSANITY officer Ants) i will endeavour to try again.

Infact your last entry jogged my lapse in concentration and clearly as day & night there lies the answer in which you seek.

I know you have said you dont respond to edits(you have used them since),and,
you cant be bothered to read back to find posts of relevance, your problem,
and you have argued there's no EPA and there is, and along with your word is good and not others,etc,etc
but,
I will refer you with post times/dates and lines so as to not be accused of corrupting evidence,
and as I would not want to involve others, I have to on this occasion, but only the post is required and not involvement of the author.




Please refer to: pg 14, yesterday, 03:11pm, 05/04/2010 by KraftyPg.



and, pg 15, yesterday, 03:41pm, 05/04/2010, by Krankin...
second line....




These posts are both unedited and are true and original.
My apologies for the missing "is".

I do hope this is to YOUR satisfaction.

Maybe with your law experience you can enlighten all of us if adding extra sulphur to your fuel is legal or not as i have asked before.


THIS IS THE FINAL time i will answer to this sulphur is it or is'nt it interrogation between yourself and I, as its like i mentioned previously
its time to get over it, for the 3rd time.


Have a nice day

 

[Matt76]

What the hell are you on about? Sorry mate you have got me completely confused, I don't even understand what point you are trying to make anymore......

 

[Dave]

I hope everyone has said what they wanna, if not have a think and calm down and I may re-open this thread.

Dave.

 

[Dave]

Thread is open again.

Can we all remember to listen to someone elses views ?

Dave.

 

[Rickstar]

Why does anyone want to add anything to ULSD.
Lubricity (Infineum) is injected into ULSD at the Refinery.

To back up my statement with fact.
Fuel Additives

 

[tweak'e]

yes they do add lube Additives to it but who said thats the fuel is in that condition when it gets to you ? contamination is a big issue with modern injection systems.

 

[Krankin]

Yes, contaminated fuel is another matter on another thread,
but anyway,
if its contaminated when u fill up,
adding 2stroke won't decontaminate it.
yes/no?