Adding 2-Stroke oil to Diesel

[Krankin]

the counter argument to that is that while fuel may pass minimum wear test at factory by the time you get it and its contaminated it may no longer do so. the old sulfur fuel had more than enough anti wear so contamination didn't drop the lube level past minimum.
they got away with contamination quite easly but now the fuel no longer has the head room to allow that.

2 stroke resulting in more soot? interesting as theres people who have pulled heads and injectors out and they are far cleaner than normal. i think hes forgetting that 2 stroke is also full off detergents to clean out soot.
DPF's is an interesting one, there seams to be enough people running 2 stroke in DPF equipped vehicles without them blocking up, in fact they seam to be have less regen cycles. however i would say it still early days on that one.

So are you discounting that this chap knows what he's job is about, yes it just writing on the internet just like everyone else here,
but then my vote on the subject and what I have written previously compliment this.
(unless proven otherwise)

Provide some evidence that the fuel we buy at the pump has lost its wear properties.

Has anyone provided an emissions test result before and after?

Why then do 2stroke (high end machines) manufacturer's as part of engine servicing require the piston crown and combustion chamber to be 'de-coked'
at regular intervals.....is it the fuel or the oil making the deposits?
If the 2stroke burned completey and better, why do some of the believers say themselves they have experienced some smoke output,
and ,
why then do 2cycle engines emit smoke( and I'm not talkin about next doors lawnmower),
and,
why do they have half burnt oil dribbling from the ex pipe?


(And this only concerns vehicle still in warranty.)

As for the ones running extra oil and have DPF's, lets see what the manufacturers have to say if a warranty claim eventuates....
Remember, there is enough evidence here and in many other forums worldwide for the manufacters to see that many people are using the oil and for them to be 'aware'.
And there is 'moles' looking at our scribblings, believe me on that one as I have been somewhat reprimanded by the said MOLE in the past.




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[KraftyPg]

So are you discounting that this chap knows what he's job is about, yes it just writing on the internet just like everyone else here,
but then my vote on the subject and what I have written previously compliment this.

I agree that it's not totally proven but I do find it kind of funny that much of this crap started by one person claiming they were an expert because of their background and they had this huge following on a website where they offered little proof and mysteriously disappeared each time proof was asked for. Yet when someone came along with the same type of proof (i.e. words on a webpage) to contradict the theory so many people passed off that as inconclusive.

As for the ones running extra oil and have DPF's, lets see what the manufacturers have to say if a warranty claim eventuates....
Remember, there is enough evidence here and in many other forums worldwide for the manufacters to see that many people are using the oil and for them to be 'aware'.
And there is 'moles' looking at our scribblings, believe me on that one as I have been somewhat reprimanded by the said MOLE (nissan) in the past.
.

I haven't been attacked by any moles but one would be stupid to think all manufacturers weren't monitoring forums too see what people were saying, sure there is some anonymity behind a nickname and manufacturers probably aren't going to the trouble of hacking sites to get themselves out of a warranty but it's not a big stretch to consider someone is reading this and flagging certain things for future reference against claims that may arise.

 

[Krankin]

Just to be clear,
my "threat of legal action" towards me due to something i posted here and sinced removed,
was not on this subject.

 

[KraftyPg]

Wow the mole that found you must have been a pissed off one. I was reading a thread on another forum the other day about someone getting sued for a two year old post on a forum, I can see it happening under the right circumstances but honesty you're such a cool, calm person who never says an angry word and rarely disagrees with anyone, I just can't see why they'd pick on you.

 

[Krankin]

Wow the mole that found you must have been a pissed off one. I was reading a thread on another forum the other day about someone getting sued for a two year old post on a forum, I can see it happening under the right circumstances but honesty you're such a cool, calm person who never says an angry word and rarely disagrees with anyone, I just can't see why they'd pick on you.

Yeah....beats me

 

[tweak'e]

So are you discounting that this chap knows what he's job is about, yes it just writing on the internet just like everyone else here,
but then my vote on the subject and what I have written previously compliment this.
(unless proven otherwise)

everyone is an expert. i doubt very much said expert in his field has done any testing on the subject and its not really something thats in his field anyway.
i've lost count of the amount of "professionals" that have got it wrong so his opinion is valued the same as everyone else, ie taken with a grain of salt.

Provide some evidence that the fuel we buy at the pump has lost its wear properties.

the only real testing i've seen is on base fuel and not pump fuel.
i base my opinion on the people who water down diesel with petrol or kero now run into injector failure problems where as before they didn't.

lets face it fuel companies are only going to make it meat minimum standards, not necessarily make it the same as the old fuel. that would cost $$$.

Has anyone provided an emissions test result before and after?

fairly common in europe where they get tested every year. plenty of reports that emissions have improved.

Why then do 2stroke (high end machines) manufacturer's as part of engine servicing require the piston crown and combustion chamber to be 'de-coked'
at regular intervals.....is it the fuel or the oil making the deposits?
If the 2stroke burned completey and better, why do some of the believers say themselves they have experienced some smoke output,
and ,
why then do 2cycle engines emit smoke( and I'm not talkin about next doors lawnmower),
and,
why do they have half burnt oil dribbling from the ex pipe?

if your talking petrol engines then that line of reason is a complete waste of time as they don't work anything like 2 stroke oil in diesel does.
petrols coat the internals and the oil is burnt off the surface leaving residue behind and excess is blown out the exhaust. diesel is ignited upon injection so it doesn't coat the internals the same.

(And this only concerns vehicle still in warranty.)

As for the ones running extra oil and have DPF's, lets see what the manufacturers have to say if a warranty claim eventuates....
Remember, there is enough evidence here and in many other forums worldwide for the manufacters to see that many people are using the oil and for them to be 'aware'.
And there is 'moles' looking at our scribblings, believe me on that one as I have been somewhat reprimanded by the said MOLE in the past.




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personally i wouldn't use any oil in diesel in a DPF equipped motor. in theroy the ash would block the DPF. however people are game enough to try and so far it LOOKS like it doesn't hurt. the decrease in emissions seams to benefit the DPF's.
you really won't know until you get someone using 2T oil for a very long time on a DPF equip engine. it may simply be the case that it takes 400 tho km's before it blocks up.

what interests me in all this is the places that have poor quality diesel seamed to be advocates of it. certainly lossy oil systems on trucks don't appear to have injector failures like their non oil counterparts.

 

[Krankin]

So a diesel engine runs clean, with no carbon biuld up on the pistons or chamber...not any I've seen.

Well, I'm convinced then,
no one else knows what theyr'e talkin about but yourself..

Please post your detailed researched and proven results before and after please ... in Australia and NZ, not Europe.

And to summarise, as it seems some do not read the full posts and only see certain sentences....run olive oil in your fuel for all I care, I wont be adding any unproven hocus pocus additive while under warranty..

Good day.

 

[tweak'e]

 

[Old.Tony]

Just so we're clear on something here, two points have been overlooked.

1) diesel fuel chemically combines with the 2-stroke oil, it doesn't emulsify it. Being a chemical change changes the nature of the beast, so that we're no longer talking about "oil in fuel", we're really talking about "modified fuel".

2) We're not talking 25:1 mix here. I mix mine in at 266:1 (300ml in 80L). You can go as high as 1L in 80, although there's no financial gain in that.

With the lower quantities, we're not talking the same thing as a conventional 2-stroke engine, so approaching the problem as if it were a 2-stroke engine issue is will skew the result.

Look at it as if this were ChemTech Diesel Additive or something similar. The fact that it's actually 2-stroke oil (and a rather special, somewhat expensive one at that) should be not considered in light of the name of the product as much as what it chemically does to the fuel itself.

I think the name of it does lend to our thinking about it from a "Victa" perspective.

Those that I see argue against it often pop open 2-stroke engines and hold up the carbon-filled piston crowns as proof that 2-stroke is a bad thing.

If you pop the head off a 2-stroke grand prix bike, you will see nice clean pistons, because they're using JASO-FC or FD oils. The same oil that has been touted for adding to diesel.

These oils are poles apart from the crap that you chuck in your Victa. There's just no real comparison.

As a test though (and I apologise, but I don't have a 2-stroke mower any more, I have a 4-stroke 22" Toro and a 4-stroke Honda whipper snipper) why doesn't someone use some Castol Activ 2T in their lawn equipment (after it has been cleaned) and see what the result is? Is the piston still carbonised?

Actually I do have a 2-stroke generator. I might disassemble that, clean it and run some of this stuff through it. Be interesting to see how it goes. Don't hold your breath, it won't happen for a while yet.

 

[Krankin]

If you pop the head off a 2-stroke grand prix bike, you will see nice clean pistons, because they're using JASO-FC or FD oils. The same oil that has been touted for adding to diesel.

While that is somewhat true, its more to the fact that these engines are only raced for a hundred miles, if that, per race weekend, and are pulled down after each race and new piston and rings for the next, hence clean internals.

If one pulled down his Nav engine every hundred miles it would have clean piston crowns too.
Other than that, out of all the 'users' I've seen on this and a few other forums, not many are using the oil type you mention above.




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[Krankin]

Still waiting, waiting, waiting for your Fact sheet.








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[Old.Tony]

While that is somewhat true, its more to the fact that these engines are only raced for a hundred miles, if that, per race weekend, and are pulled down after each race and new piston and rings for the next, hence clean internals.

If one pulled down his Nav engine every hundred miles it would have clean piston crowns too.
Other than that, out of all the 'users' I've seen on this and a few other forums, not many are using the oil type you mention above.




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That's a fair comment, perhaps I should have included "upmarket 2-stroke street bikes" in that as well. These bikes are using more 2-stroke per litre of fuel than is being suggested for use in diesel, yet I'd be somewhat alarmed if they were opened up and looked anything like the average Victa!

I think you've made an important point with that last statement. If people aren't using the right oil, they're asking for trouble. They're asking for heavy deposits, blocked DPFs etc.

The entire reasoning behind choosing such a premium oil as one that's rated JASO-FC or better is so that there are no (or very very few) large particles created during combustion.

If people want to chuck lawn-mower-grade oil in their diesels, that's a problem they're going to have to live with.

The ONLY oils I've experimented with are JASO-FC (extremely low ash). It's completely ridiculous to use substandard stuff and risk things like $400 injectors, $4,000 fuel pumps etc (yes they can be gotten cheaper but that's not the point).

As I've said, by using JASO-FC oil, I've saved about $4 a tankful. If I were to use JASO-FD, I'd lose money on each tank. The benefit only exists while the savings exist. Since neither JASO-FC or JASO-FD oils are likely to damage the engine by their presence, the equation is rather simple and is purely in terms of benefit vs cost.

I could save money by using lawn mower grade 2-stroke, but then I introduce the risk of damage into that equation, so it no longer becomes one of cost/benefit, but becomes one of cost/risk/benefit.

While I've been quite happy to experiment to a degree, I refuse to experiment where I believe there is a significant risk.

 

[Krankin]

while its no secret i dont use extra oil, i totally agree with you using the best possible/reasonable grade of oil, probably even go full syn if its not what your using allready.



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[tweak'e]

Still waiting, waiting, waiting for your Fact sheet.



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its something you will never get. no one is going to spend the $$$$ testing unless they can make $$ on it.

nearest i've seen is the US 4x4 mag which tested lube rating with various diesel additives. however they used bare fuel not normal pump fuel.
the other is African injector wear/failure testing with various fuels and watered down diesel.
i'm sure theres tons from cummins etc with their lossy engine oil systems. they have done lots of research into engine oil into diesel. just not 2 stroke oil in diesel.

the rest is subjective, just thousands of users and no bad outcomes.
the more interesting ones is the ones that keep having injectors fail till the add 2 stroke oil in.

The entire reasoning behind choosing such a premium oil as one that's rated JASO-FC or better is so that there are no (or very very few) large particles created during combustion.
..........

As I've said, by using JASO-FC oil, I've saved about $4 a tankful. If I were to use JASO-FD, I'd lose money on each tank. The benefit only exists while the savings exist. Since neither JASO-FC or JASO-FD oils are likely to damage the engine by their presence, the equation is rather simple and is purely in terms of benefit vs cost.
...............

talking about 2 stroke engines is still barking up the wrong tree.

the idea is to use any 2 stoke oil that burns cleanly. FC is about the best grade and has lots of detergents which help clean the deposits.

FD is NOT recommend because its typically synthetic oil.
synthetic oil generally doesn't burn well at all (some car manufactures recommend not to use it for that very reason). because it lubes better you can use less oil which has a big advantage in a 2 stroke petrol.
the other big factor is synthetic oil doesn't mix well in diesel.

you can use engine oil, but because its not designed to be burnt like 2 stroke oil is, it leaves deposits especially around the injector tips.

 

[Old.Tony]

talking about 2 stroke engines is still barking up the wrong tree.

the idea is to use any 2 stoke oil that burns cleanly. FC is about the best grade and has lots of detergents which help clean the deposits.

FD is NOT recommend because its typically synthetic oil.
synthetic oil generally doesn't burn well at all (some car manufactures recommend not to use it for that very reason). because it lubes better you can use less oil which has a big advantage in a 2 stroke petrol.
the other big factor is synthetic oil doesn't mix well in diesel.

you can use engine oil, but because its not designed to be burnt like 2 stroke oil is, it leaves deposits especially around the injector tips.

Therein lies an issue that Nissan need to address then.

They are currently using and recommending synthetic 5W30 in the crank, fully aware that this is picked up by the PCV and placed in the intake manifold.

For me, I'm not going to bitch at them, there's no point, I'll just go the catch-can route and end the PCV problem once and for all.

However, you have added a further (and better) justification to not using FD rated oils.

Really, we shouldn't be mentioning them as "2-stroke oils" but just "combustible oils". It might change the perspective, yes?

 

[Krankin]

Tweak'e, Nizzbits or anyone... just doing some of my own R&D on top of what allready gone on here....

wanting info for:

2.5CRTD engine

cam/valve timing spec sheet and injector timing/ duration spec sheet-figures.




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[Krankin]

Who's still using it and give us some results.

 

[Old.Tony]

I still put some in, maybe every 3rd or 4th tank. Been mixing up towing, city and highway lately so it's hard to be even close to accurate on mileage.

What I can say is that when I was out with Beergutz testing the fuel rail pressure on my vehicle compared to his, I tramped it hard and it didn't seem to blow out any cobwebs - so either there weren't any, or the spider inside is stronger than I think!

 

[Krankin]

I still put some in, maybe every 3rd or 4th tank. Been mixing up towing, city and highway lately so it's hard to be even close to accurate on mileage.

What I can say is that when I was out with Beergutz testing the fuel rail pressure on my vehicle compared to his, I tramped it hard and it didn't seem to blow out any cobwebs - so either there weren't any, or the spider inside is stronger than I think!

so for you, is it seriously worth it or just baloney?


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[Old.Tony]

When I drove consistently for a few tanks I appeared to be getting an improvement in economy.

From what I can tell, at 65,000km there should be some gunk on my injectors and that should show under full load - but there's nothing. She performs nearly as well today as when I finished running her in. The larger tyres made an impact on performance and economy, and I have to wait a while to change those - I put BFGs on, and they reportedly last 80-100,000km, which means I've still got at least 60K on them!