camo.b
Member
Strange how some get a cold start rattle with "other filters" and some do not..could it be a thai /spanish thing?
Timing Chain Failures and Oil Filters
- Thread starter Old.Tony
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It's certainly possible. Who manufactures the tensioners for the Thai/Spanish builds? If the tensioners all come from one factory then I'd say the chance is slim, but if Thai trucks get a locally-sourced tensioner AND the Thai builds are more prone to failure, you'd have to think it's in the build.
And that - in my opinion - makes EVERY one of the failures the direct responsibility of Nissan Motor Co.
And that's also part of what this thread is about. If it were an issue about genuine filters or not, you could then put the blame of the failure onto the owner for choosing aftermarket filters, but that's clearly not the case here.
I think we should now look at where each truck came from.
And that - in my opinion - makes EVERY one of the failures the direct responsibility of Nissan Motor Co.
And that's also part of what this thread is about. If it were an issue about genuine filters or not, you could then put the blame of the failure onto the owner for choosing aftermarket filters, but that's clearly not the case here.
I think we should now look at where each truck came from.
lookskyward1
Member
As previously posted, my bottom timing chain failed at 106K miles. My D40 is a Spanish built 2007 Euro4 model. From new it was in company ownership and serviced by Nissan at the scheduled 18k miles intervals.
On taking ownership, at 80k miles, I only ever used Mobil1 0w40 Diesel oil and changed the oil and filter at much more regular intervals of 6k. The first oil filter I used was a quality aftermarket one but it was obviously allowing drainback and at the next service and after, I only used genuine filters. The drainback of the oil was causing the oil light to remain lit for a few seconds longer than expected first thing in the morning.
When the chain was failing, I was lucky to find pieces of plastic guide in the sump before serious damage occurred. On stripping the motor down, it was obvious the lower chain had stretched way beyond service limits (I didn't measure it). This caused the lower tensioner to extend to a point it was sticking and caused the chain to eat into the lower guide.
I made the mistake of fitting a cheap aftermarket replacement chain kit, (FAI).
Within 6 to 7 months, I was noticing a tappety noise on startup, this turned out to be the upper chain tensioner failing. This caused one of the upper guides to break off its mounting points. Again I was luck and there was no collateral damage.
As a result of this I bought and fitted a full Duplex conversion kit from Billcar who supplied genuine parts with an adapted vacuum pump. I spoke to Dave at Billcar who told me that aftermarket upper tensioners were causing breakdowns. The tensioners are basically small spring loaded plungers with an engine oil feed for damping. Oil should not leak back through the tensioner supply hole, if it does it allows slapping of the upper chain resulting in the tappety noise and damage I had experienced. Dave further explained that he had never heard of a lower tensioner failing in this way.
So the point of this post is to air my opinion on the cause of this built-in weakness in the D40 YD25 engine. I fully blame the weakness on Nissan for fitting a simplex lower timing chain in this engine. The D22 with the YD25 engine in the UK (2001-2005) had the duplex setup which has caused no issues, but putting a weaker chain in a more powerful engine is madness.
The drainback caused by some aftermarket oil filters obviously has an effect on the engine but not the lower chain or tensioner. I think this is a red herring.
This subject has been covered many times on Nissan-Navara.Net, where I have attempted to collate relevant information in an effort to show a pattern of vehicles affected. To be honest the results are not conclusive and do not show any particular year of D40 being better or worse than any other.
http://www.nissan-navara.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=80569&hilit=timing+chain+poll
It's good to share information, especially if it helps us put the screws on Nissan.
On taking ownership, at 80k miles, I only ever used Mobil1 0w40 Diesel oil and changed the oil and filter at much more regular intervals of 6k. The first oil filter I used was a quality aftermarket one but it was obviously allowing drainback and at the next service and after, I only used genuine filters. The drainback of the oil was causing the oil light to remain lit for a few seconds longer than expected first thing in the morning.
When the chain was failing, I was lucky to find pieces of plastic guide in the sump before serious damage occurred. On stripping the motor down, it was obvious the lower chain had stretched way beyond service limits (I didn't measure it). This caused the lower tensioner to extend to a point it was sticking and caused the chain to eat into the lower guide.
I made the mistake of fitting a cheap aftermarket replacement chain kit, (FAI).
Within 6 to 7 months, I was noticing a tappety noise on startup, this turned out to be the upper chain tensioner failing. This caused one of the upper guides to break off its mounting points. Again I was luck and there was no collateral damage.
As a result of this I bought and fitted a full Duplex conversion kit from Billcar who supplied genuine parts with an adapted vacuum pump. I spoke to Dave at Billcar who told me that aftermarket upper tensioners were causing breakdowns. The tensioners are basically small spring loaded plungers with an engine oil feed for damping. Oil should not leak back through the tensioner supply hole, if it does it allows slapping of the upper chain resulting in the tappety noise and damage I had experienced. Dave further explained that he had never heard of a lower tensioner failing in this way.
So the point of this post is to air my opinion on the cause of this built-in weakness in the D40 YD25 engine. I fully blame the weakness on Nissan for fitting a simplex lower timing chain in this engine. The D22 with the YD25 engine in the UK (2001-2005) had the duplex setup which has caused no issues, but putting a weaker chain in a more powerful engine is madness.
The drainback caused by some aftermarket oil filters obviously has an effect on the engine but not the lower chain or tensioner. I think this is a red herring.
This subject has been covered many times on Nissan-Navara.Net, where I have attempted to collate relevant information in an effort to show a pattern of vehicles affected. To be honest the results are not conclusive and do not show any particular year of D40 being better or worse than any other.
http://www.nissan-navara.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=80569&hilit=timing+chain+poll
It's good to share information, especially if it helps us put the screws on Nissan.
That poll shows an spread through the earlier years but that could also be explained by age or distance "wear and tear" - doesn't make it right, the timing chains aren't supposed to have a "best before" date!
It still seems to be the case that it's not the chain failing, it's the tensioner.
It still seems to be the case that it's not the chain failing, it's the tensioner.
The irony here is bloody painful. Nissan (Renault) fits a chain instead of a belt because of the public perception that it is lower maintenance and lasts longer. If only they had fitted a belt, it would be trivial to change the belt every 100ks and there wouldn't really be much else to complain about on the YD25
abouttogobush
Member
You would think the YD25 would have the same tensioners regardless of it being Thai or Spain build. Surely the same donk goes in the two. Just my thoughts and being Nissan I am probably wrong.
Cheers.
Cheers.
camo.b
Member
There are quite a few diffrences with the thai and spain..manifolds... sensors..turbos and similar bolt ons.
4 naving
Member
I think the tensioners are the same but the chains come from different manufacturers for different years /models.
It is interesting that the duplex upgrade from yd25 uses genuine Nissan tensioners as they state they are the best....
I really don't think the oil filter is the cause. Aftermarket ones just show the head of the problem earlier being, single chain stretching/wearing and wearing guides/tensioners.
Otherwise the motor is fantastic power to weight.
All I can say is it will be my last Nissan.
It is interesting that the duplex upgrade from yd25 uses genuine Nissan tensioners as they state they are the best....
I really don't think the oil filter is the cause. Aftermarket ones just show the head of the problem earlier being, single chain stretching/wearing and wearing guides/tensioners.
Otherwise the motor is fantastic power to weight.
All I can say is it will be my last Nissan.
abouttogobush
Member
True that!, at least Mitsubishi had the balls to recall their faulty timing chains in the Pajero's and admit there was a problem.
http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55778
http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55778
There was a Kiwi that joined the forum who said he worked for Nissan and that it was caused by the EGR turning the oil acidic. He reckoned there was a software update to fix it but wasn't sure what it did. Here http://www.navara.asia/showpost.php?p=263491&postcount=38 and here http://www.navara.asia/showthread.php?t=17517
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4 naving
Member
My one was blocked at 40 000klm. Now done 160 000klm. Noisy without genuine filter but I guess its a sign of things to come..... Considering I paid 50k for it new and spent about 25k on mods to go remote touring I am not happy. It has been very well maintained so I would not expect this on top of having to fit 3 clutches since owning it.... Oh what a feeling...
abouttogobush
Member
Turning the oil acidic re the egr??, you would think that would cause issue's elsewhere. Also the failures on the 22 regardless of build location are almost non existent compared to the 40. The puzzle deepens....
camo.b
Member
There was a guy on the d4 FB page with a 07 spanish stx just blew his chain @150000 kms good service history and all too
So it's still pointing to a poor design of tensioner.
abouttogobush
Member
Old bloke d22 bog stock 412k 09 model. Nothing done semi retired I spoke to him in traffic last year. Petrie Nissan do his service, motor was as quiet as mine 80k as new.
ST-R
Member
Iceman
Member
So how impossible would it be to change the sprockets etc and put belts on a yd25?
Just out of interest...
Just out of interest...
