K
KraftyPg
Guest
Around home I'll be doing the same but when your out in the middle of nowhere and there could be savings of 40 cents per litre it is worth knowing if you can trust the cheaper option.
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Around home I'll be doing the same but when your out in the middle of nowhere and there could be savings of 40 cents per litre it is worth knowing if you can trust the cheaper option.
maddogrc
Member
yeah, i think it was that peak.
maybe its just the new common rail system which didnt like it that much?
i think he has used bio diesel on his cruiser ute before and didnt say any good or bad about it. will ask him next time
maybe its just the new common rail system which didnt like it that much?
i think he has used bio diesel on his cruiser ute before and didnt say any good or bad about it. will ask him next time
K
KraftyPg
Guest
CRD is as good an excuse as any other maybe we can run with tht until proven wrong
maddogrc
Member
perhaps the old type mechanical injection, which is only injected at a few 1000 psi, doesn't mind the bio diesel where as the crd injection system which injects at around 30,000 psi causes a reaction with the diesel properties?
who knows? maybe the bio fuel when extremely pressurised has a characteristic about it change?
i honestly haven't a clue...
who knows? maybe the bio fuel when extremely pressurised has a characteristic about it change?
i honestly haven't a clue...
If anything you'd think the higher pressures would result in much fewer issues. 30,000psi is an extraordinarily high pressure. Even if you were trying to pump raw cooking oil, at that pressure it'd heat up tremendously and would atomise as it passed through the injector.
I don't have any information on the corrosive properties of biodiesel, or its tendency to wax like normal diesel - what happens if it's left in the lines for too long? Is there some component of the fuel that could cause excessive wear in our injectors or pump? What about the effect on our fuel lines? Different fuels require different kinds of rubber. What about the other seals and o-rings and gaskets etc etc?
Lots of questions, unanswered as yet because biodiesel is a bit too new. I don't know what modifications the trucking companies have to do to use 100% bio, but I understand that there are some changes required.
Hey, it'll be a blast learning about it, if nothing else.
I don't have any information on the corrosive properties of biodiesel, or its tendency to wax like normal diesel - what happens if it's left in the lines for too long? Is there some component of the fuel that could cause excessive wear in our injectors or pump? What about the effect on our fuel lines? Different fuels require different kinds of rubber. What about the other seals and o-rings and gaskets etc etc?
Lots of questions, unanswered as yet because biodiesel is a bit too new. I don't know what modifications the trucking companies have to do to use 100% bio, but I understand that there are some changes required.
Hey, it'll be a blast learning about it, if nothing else.
maddogrc
Member
would bio diesel have a higher rate of causing what i've heard as algae blocking the fuel lines if left to long?
Ordinary diesel turns waxy if it's left too long, apparently. Don't know enough about biodiesel, but algae really needs sunlight and something to breathe (oxygen or carbon dioxide depending on the available light). It won't get much of that inside your fuel lines, but then it could start growing mushrooms for all we know, eh?
K
KraftyPg
Guest
On the 8 tonners my boss was running 100% bio with the main change was the filters. The stuff he was making in the factory beside where we loaded the trucks was supposedly as good as diesel but the filters needed changing every 5 - 10K where as we were running the diesel trucks for 20K between services and sometimes we'd get 2 services out of a filter. But that was 100% bio so it would have to be different on a 20% blend
The initial response from the dealer was:
He wants me to call him to discuss. I think I'll drop in and say g'day and go over the details, in particular I'm going to ask him about the reduced alternatives in the outback areas. That's particularly important, because before we even started talking price, we had made it clear that we would be traveling extensively in this vehicle.
If I am going to have to cart my own diesel tanker just so I can get to places because I'm not allowed to risk using bio diesel blends, then I'm going to have a thing or two to say about it.
He wants me to call him to discuss. I think I'll drop in and say g'day and go over the details, in particular I'm going to ask him about the reduced alternatives in the outback areas. That's particularly important, because before we even started talking price, we had made it clear that we would be traveling extensively in this vehicle.
If I am going to have to cart my own diesel tanker just so I can get to places because I'm not allowed to risk using bio diesel blends, then I'm going to have a thing or two to say about it.
K
KraftyPg
Guest
My initial guess is that comment is more to do with them not understanding the effects of Bio and not being able to guarantee the stuff you put in. To me it sounds like the old comment from dealers when gas first came out. No dealer would have been caught dead recommending you put gas on your brand new car 20 years ago but low and behold the dealers start doing their own conversions and now they are selling gas only cars. Sure technology has improved and gas may be more viable now than it once was but dealers are programmed not to agree to certain things.
Whether he's right or wrong is beside the point because there is plenty out there on the other side of the fence who will claim it's perfectly safe but I would be interested in just what excuse he has for it given that this whole bio thing isn't something that some guy in the middle of the outback thought of just because he didn't have an oil refinery close by, it's used the world over and some countries use it pretty heavily and for Nissan to ignore such things would be silly of them.
20 years ago had forums like this existed (bulletin boards on 9600 baud just didn't cut it) we'd have been having the same discussion on the merits of leaded and unleaded cars, the topics changed but the discussions haven't changed that much
Whether he's right or wrong is beside the point because there is plenty out there on the other side of the fence who will claim it's perfectly safe but I would be interested in just what excuse he has for it given that this whole bio thing isn't something that some guy in the middle of the outback thought of just because he didn't have an oil refinery close by, it's used the world over and some countries use it pretty heavily and for Nissan to ignore such things would be silly of them.
20 years ago had forums like this existed (bulletin boards on 9600 baud just didn't cut it) we'd have been having the same discussion on the merits of leaded and unleaded cars, the topics changed but the discussions haven't changed that much
I have been thinking the same thing, but some research (while I'm waiting for a new security server's hard drive to format) has revealed some startling things about biodiesel that we should be aware of.
1) Biodiesel has a higher "cloud point" than normal diesel. This is the point where the fuel starts to form wax crystals - biodiesel will do it sooner than normal diesel.
2) Biodiesel does not flow well at low temperatures. That's going to be an issue for any of us "up in the mountains" in winter.
3) The energy content per litre of biodiesel is approximately 11 percent lower than that of normal diesel. You'll not travel as many km on your tank with it.
4) Biodiesel is a good solvent, and can dissolve rubber and certain plastics, remove paint, as well as oxidize some metals. This may affect fuel lines, rubber seals and more. It may cause damage to the injector assembly, pump etc.
5) Biodiesel has also been reported to destroy asphalt and concrete if these are exposed long enough to biodiesel.
6) Biodiesel gives off more nitrogen oxide during the combustion process. They say it like it's a bad thing.
I'm still going to have the conversation with the dealer. But I think I have found enough justification to limit, if not avoid entirely, my use of biodiesel.
1) Biodiesel has a higher "cloud point" than normal diesel. This is the point where the fuel starts to form wax crystals - biodiesel will do it sooner than normal diesel.
2) Biodiesel does not flow well at low temperatures. That's going to be an issue for any of us "up in the mountains" in winter.
3) The energy content per litre of biodiesel is approximately 11 percent lower than that of normal diesel. You'll not travel as many km on your tank with it.
4) Biodiesel is a good solvent, and can dissolve rubber and certain plastics, remove paint, as well as oxidize some metals. This may affect fuel lines, rubber seals and more. It may cause damage to the injector assembly, pump etc.
5) Biodiesel has also been reported to destroy asphalt and concrete if these are exposed long enough to biodiesel.
6) Biodiesel gives off more nitrogen oxide during the combustion process. They say it like it's a bad thing.
I'm still going to have the conversation with the dealer. But I think I have found enough justification to limit, if not avoid entirely, my use of biodiesel.
K
KraftyPg
Guest
Is that from a reputable source? Not that reputable is much to go by given that in most cases these things are written by one side or the other, impartial has never been a word journos understood let alone web authors.
To me it sounds sounds a lot like the gas vs petrol debate of years ago and while I'll never convert a petrol car to gas maybe I should consider the same stance on biodiesel however it still seems to be an open argument and I guess always will be until there is no choice and then it will just be complaints there is no choice.
Another issue that could easily taint any argument for or against is that there are so many choices when it comes to 100% bio. While I take onboard your comments about what it can dissolve and destroy I know this is not entirely true in all cases. As mentioned before my boss (ex boss actually) produced this stuff inside a factory 20 feet from where bread trucks were loaded and the factory passed all food handling local laws. Now I know some of the ingredients in bread are a bit iffy but when company policy states you can't fill up a truck with diesel during your run even if you wash your hands thoroughly if this stuff that was being made in our factory was as bad as diesel or worse still the Bio that destroys concrete we wouldn't have been allowed in there let alone have 8000 units of bread products every day.
To me it sounds sounds a lot like the gas vs petrol debate of years ago and while I'll never convert a petrol car to gas maybe I should consider the same stance on biodiesel however it still seems to be an open argument and I guess always will be until there is no choice and then it will just be complaints there is no choice.
Another issue that could easily taint any argument for or against is that there are so many choices when it comes to 100% bio. While I take onboard your comments about what it can dissolve and destroy I know this is not entirely true in all cases. As mentioned before my boss (ex boss actually) produced this stuff inside a factory 20 feet from where bread trucks were loaded and the factory passed all food handling local laws. Now I know some of the ingredients in bread are a bit iffy but when company policy states you can't fill up a truck with diesel during your run even if you wash your hands thoroughly if this stuff that was being made in our factory was as bad as diesel or worse still the Bio that destroys concrete we wouldn't have been allowed in there let alone have 8000 units of bread products every day.
I got some of that information from a pro-biodiesel web site. They were all about "less emissions and less particulate matter, yay you won't get cancer by inhaling from your exhaust pipe" but had some info about the "down side".
Yet another site explained the reason for it not working in the newer cars - and the reason is the DPF. Seems that to make the DPF regenerate, they squirt a little diesel in during the exhaust stroke. This then heats the DPF up enough to burn the particulate matter.
Problem is, biodiesel doesn't atomise as readily and lines the wall of the cylinder, and is pushed past the rings causing the crankcase oil to be diluted. It also causes the EGT to drop below acceptable levels, which cause the ECU to show the engine warning light and then to limit the speed of the vehicle.
I'm pretty much sold on the "leave it alone" idea for now. About to leave and see the man.
Yet another site explained the reason for it not working in the newer cars - and the reason is the DPF. Seems that to make the DPF regenerate, they squirt a little diesel in during the exhaust stroke. This then heats the DPF up enough to burn the particulate matter.
Problem is, biodiesel doesn't atomise as readily and lines the wall of the cylinder, and is pushed past the rings causing the crankcase oil to be diluted. It also causes the EGT to drop below acceptable levels, which cause the ECU to show the engine warning light and then to limit the speed of the vehicle.
I'm pretty much sold on the "leave it alone" idea for now. About to leave and see the man.
K
KraftyPg
Guest
The DPF idea is about the best one I've heard so far I think. Everything else just sounds like he said she said but with the way the DPF works (or doesn't work depending on the thread you read) Bio could cause some issues in the flushing of the DPF if it doesn't have the same properties as diesel.
I know the old 8 tonners they used to have at work didn't have DPF's because they were too old but plenty of newer and bigger trucks have them fitted in the factory so maybe thats the difference between running a blend of bio and 100% bio
I know the old 8 tonners they used to have at work didn't have DPF's because they were too old but plenty of newer and bigger trucks have them fitted in the factory so maybe thats the difference between running a blend of bio and 100% bio
Some of the larger trucks with DPFs don't inject in the exhaust stroke, they have separate regen injectors in the exhaust manifold that neatly avoid the issue entirely.
K
KraftyPg
Guest
Ok I'm going to blame the DPF.
The DPF conspiracy theorists have extra ammo now
The DPF conspiracy theorists have extra ammo now
This actually raises two other almost separate issues.
1) The D40's will always have worse fuel economy because of the regen cycle
2) Removing the DPF doesn't alter the programming in the ECU and that still may inject during the exhaust stroke - unless it only injects if there's a pressure differential exceeding a certain level, in which case it's vital to connect the sensors up again after the DPF's removal.
I should point out that removing the DPF would be against the law - those reading this and thinking it's a great idea to remove that DPF should consider what implications that has: rendering your vehicle unroadworthy may result in a fine, and may result in your insurance being void.
1) The D40's will always have worse fuel economy because of the regen cycle
2) Removing the DPF doesn't alter the programming in the ECU and that still may inject during the exhaust stroke - unless it only injects if there's a pressure differential exceeding a certain level, in which case it's vital to connect the sensors up again after the DPF's removal.
I should point out that removing the DPF would be against the law - those reading this and thinking it's a great idea to remove that DPF should consider what implications that has: rendering your vehicle unroadworthy may result in a fine, and may result in your insurance being void.
K
KraftyPg
Guest
My fuel economy figures are good enough as they are and they will only get better when I hit the open roads over to Perth (as long as I don't use bio blends by the look of it) so economy to me doesn't seem to be an issue if i stay with the norm.
Removing the DPF was discussed elsewhere and they may have touched on the ECU issue I don't remember but I believe you are right the ECU would have to be told if the part wasn't there. Although the warnings pop up if it's not there too.
Unless there is undeniable proof that Bio is going to be a benefit I'm not really planning to use it given that I know there is plenty of chances to fill up across the Nullabor (and round home there is no bio) but for all those out there who seem stuck on one flavour of fuel for their cars when it comes down to little choice it's good to know the options.
Removing the DPF was discussed elsewhere and they may have touched on the ECU issue I don't remember but I believe you are right the ECU would have to be told if the part wasn't there. Although the warnings pop up if it's not there too.
Unless there is undeniable proof that Bio is going to be a benefit I'm not really planning to use it given that I know there is plenty of chances to fill up across the Nullabor (and round home there is no bio) but for all those out there who seem stuck on one flavour of fuel for their cars when it comes down to little choice it's good to know the options.
SOLID D22
Member
Ok seriously so if fuel is 40c a litre more than normal thats $30 over a full 75l tank, No thanks to biodiesel, to do possible damage to your car for $30 dollars a tank is just plain stupid. Even if you fill up 10 extra times, its only $300 more, seriously traveling out back your not gona worry about $300 bucks.
Still worried, get a custom made long range tank.
Still worried, get a custom made long range tank.
I had a nice discussion with the dealer.
Bottom line is basically this: try not to use it.
Nissan are (as all manufacturers except maybe Great Wall, who would be trying desperately to find a way to replace their foil bodywork with something a little more substantial - see p8 of The Open Road) evaluate biodiesel in their engines.
Not that long ago, the government introduced legislation that required the manufacturers to take steps to reduce sulphur, sulphate, particulate and NOx (nitrogen oxide, dioxide etc) emissions. For this reason, we now have ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) and more cars with DPFs (even things like the VW Jetta have DPFs now).
In order to accomodate the DPF, they had to work out how to clean it. The easiest way to achieve this without significant expense (in the relatively small $ market that our Navaras belong to) was to add pressure differential sensors before and after the DPF and when there was enough of a difference, the ECU would activate the injectors during the exhaust stroke while the exhaust valve was open (ie after the piston had reached BDC), in order to send some unburnt fuel in to be caught by the DPF.
On the next ignition stroke, that fuel would ignite and burn off the soot. It's not a large amount of fuel that's squirted in, by the way - it's miniscule, but it's enough to do the job as long as the engine has enough RPM to maintain flow through that area of the exhaust.
Okay, so we're stuck with DPFs. Biodiesel is causing them some concern, because it can cause significant damage through its corrosive nature and vehicles that are using biodiesel need to have certain changes made to prevent problems. You are also limited to where you can take a biodiesel-powered vehicle - because biodiesel waxes easily at lower temperatures, alpine areas are pretty much off-limits for the moment until the biodiesel makers can overcome this.
I think a more important point that was touched on but not spoken aloud about is economy and the usage figures that we ought to be able to get. Because biodiesel has a lower calorific value than diesel, it doesn't produce as much energy during combustion and in order to achieve the same driving results (eg tow x kilograms for y kilometres at z km/h) you're going to use more fuel.
Nissan are investigating biodiesel, though, because they can see the writing on the wall as well. Nissan will inform its users when and if things need to be done in order to make use of the fuel.
As for using biodiesel now - I was advised that if I had the choice of using it, or using straight petroleum-based diesel, I should use the petroleum based fuel, although the 2% mix served by Caltex should have next to no effect or impact on the vehicle. I was told that the recommended fuel was Shell diesel - but I do think that's at least partially personal preference, too.
So there you have it. Try to not use the higher blends, but don't worry about minor blends like 2%.
Bottom line is basically this: try not to use it.
Nissan are (as all manufacturers except maybe Great Wall, who would be trying desperately to find a way to replace their foil bodywork with something a little more substantial - see p8 of The Open Road) evaluate biodiesel in their engines.
Not that long ago, the government introduced legislation that required the manufacturers to take steps to reduce sulphur, sulphate, particulate and NOx (nitrogen oxide, dioxide etc) emissions. For this reason, we now have ULSD (Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel) and more cars with DPFs (even things like the VW Jetta have DPFs now).
In order to accomodate the DPF, they had to work out how to clean it. The easiest way to achieve this without significant expense (in the relatively small $ market that our Navaras belong to) was to add pressure differential sensors before and after the DPF and when there was enough of a difference, the ECU would activate the injectors during the exhaust stroke while the exhaust valve was open (ie after the piston had reached BDC), in order to send some unburnt fuel in to be caught by the DPF.
On the next ignition stroke, that fuel would ignite and burn off the soot. It's not a large amount of fuel that's squirted in, by the way - it's miniscule, but it's enough to do the job as long as the engine has enough RPM to maintain flow through that area of the exhaust.
Okay, so we're stuck with DPFs. Biodiesel is causing them some concern, because it can cause significant damage through its corrosive nature and vehicles that are using biodiesel need to have certain changes made to prevent problems. You are also limited to where you can take a biodiesel-powered vehicle - because biodiesel waxes easily at lower temperatures, alpine areas are pretty much off-limits for the moment until the biodiesel makers can overcome this.
I think a more important point that was touched on but not spoken aloud about is economy and the usage figures that we ought to be able to get. Because biodiesel has a lower calorific value than diesel, it doesn't produce as much energy during combustion and in order to achieve the same driving results (eg tow x kilograms for y kilometres at z km/h) you're going to use more fuel.
Nissan are investigating biodiesel, though, because they can see the writing on the wall as well. Nissan will inform its users when and if things need to be done in order to make use of the fuel.
As for using biodiesel now - I was advised that if I had the choice of using it, or using straight petroleum-based diesel, I should use the petroleum based fuel, although the 2% mix served by Caltex should have next to no effect or impact on the vehicle. I was told that the recommended fuel was Shell diesel - but I do think that's at least partially personal preference, too.
So there you have it. Try to not use the higher blends, but don't worry about minor blends like 2%.
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