Adding 2-Stroke oil to Diesel

[Krankin]

Peter Brock's magic polariser box comes to mind here!

I would think the oil companies would be promoting this as they would be profiting from extra dollars from oil sales.

Petrol engines have been chugging along quite nicely since lead (lubricant amongst other properties) was taken out.
Everyone thought they wouldnt last but history shows different.

If diesel isnt oily enough on its own, why are the bowsers always so filthy compared to petrol bowsers, why is it used on formwork so concrete doesnt stick to it, etc etc.

Anyway each to their own.

 

[numb]

numb: Be constructive and say it constructively. Abuse will not be tolerated.

 

[Dion]

Fair effort mate, half way to banned in your first post.

 

[Krankin]

Missed that one!.....Where can i see the pre-edited post out of curiosity?

 

[numb]

Ahh..... this isn't fair. I can't even make one message. I think this is discrimination because i drive a Lada Niva! I'm going onto the Patrol website. At least they won' censor you.

 

[Krankin]

For those worrying about lubing their pumps, just noticed on the bottles of Injector cleaner that it also provides this lube function as well as a few others. Better than adding oil to your fuel especially if a warranty issue arises.
Extra oil's not going to keep injectors clean but it would hasten them fouling up.

 

[numb]

Hello! Anyone out there? Hootie what are you up to? What are you doing this weekend?

 

[Old.Tony]

I've gone and had a read of this, and a bunch of associated stuff relating to this issue. There are a couple of key things that have convinced me to do this, at least in every second tank full.

Pump & Injector Lubrication - while 1:200 seems mighty low, it's better than zero and anecdotal evidence so far suggests that the modified diesel is superior in its lubrication (quieter injectors & pump when cold).

Reduced Soot - it seems that the sole purpose of the DPF is to trap the black soot that we usually see diesel engines emit. By adding the two-stroke oil to the diesel, you aren't stopping the diesel from producing soot, but you are chemically changing the fuel so that it burns a little hotter - and it seems, just hot enough to also burn the fuel properly thereby mostly avoiding the soot altogether. This means, since it's combusted, it passes through the DPF and the DPF won't clog as easily.

Increased power and economy - this is going to be really minor and will be a result of the increased combustion - afforded by the slightly higher combustion temperature. Over distances with similar driving styles it might equate to a marginal improvement.

My concern is for those that are really punishing their motors. Feel like doing some donuts under full throttle, or climbing Mt Victoria at 160km/h with 2 tonnes behind you? a 5% increase in temperature might just have an extended effect on the top of the piston and cause it to melt. Add to that any modifications to the boost available and there is an increased risk of damage to the pistons.

If you were asking me for advice, based on what I've read, I'd say adding two-stroke to the diesel tank is a great idea as long as you are working on a standard motor configuration and driving the vehicle normally. Anyone outside of those parameters changes the equations anyway.

Will I do it, when mine arrives? Yep. If I can avoid any impact on the DPF, I will probably avoid trouble with it. If I can quieten the injectors, they'll wear less and last longer. Since I generally drive in a rather docile fashion (and especially when we're carting the grandson around) the negative impact is avoided.

Count me in.

 

[Krankin]

Reduced Soot - it seems that the sole purpose of the DPF is to trap the black soot that we usually see diesel engines emit. By adding the two-stroke oil to the diesel, you aren't stopping the diesel from producing soot, but you are chemically changing the fuel so that it burns a little hotter - and it seems, just hot enough to also burn the fuel properly thereby mostly avoiding the soot altogether. This means, since it's combusted, it passes through the DPF and the DPF won't clog as easily.






I'd say adding two-stroke to the diesel tank is a great idea as long as you are working on a standard motor configuration and driving the vehicle normally.




.

2 comments if i may.

1. The 2stroke oils to be used, are these Low SAPS?
as most oils have these components
( Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous and Sulphur).
Diesel engines having DPF's have to use specialty ( LOW SAPS engine/crankcase oils)
as to not clog DPF's and VOID warranties or contravene EPA laws.
Hence the fact that Diesel fuels now being made low in these components also.

2.Re standard motor configs.
Engines are engineered to run on fuels manufactured from the refineries currently and i dare say, not with the addition of unknown amounts and qualities of 2stroke oils.
also engines with a bit of mileage on them will accumulate carbon deposits on piston crowns, and more so with the addition of 2stroke oils
(common occurence on 2 cycle engines)
thus, creating higher compression ratio's, hence increasing combustion chamber temps,
increasing the chance of detonation,
all on a "standard engine".

However, each has the right to choose their course of action regarding the use of adding oils to their fuels.

 

[Old.Tony]

2 comments if i may.

1. The 2stroke oils to be used, are these Low SAPS?

2.Re standard motor configs.
Engines are engineered to run on fuels manufactured from the refineries currently and i dare say, not with the addition of unknown amounts and qualities of 2stroke oils.
also engines with a bit of mileage on them will accumulate carbon deposits on piston crowns, and more so with the addition of 2stroke oils
(common occurence on 2 cycle engines)
thus, creating higher compression ratio's, hence increasing combustion chamber temps,
increasing the chance of detonation,
all on a "standard engine".

The person that explained it the best (Yamaha_Fan) on the freel forum did say, many times during the thread, that the lowest ash 2-stroke oil was the one to use, even naming a couple of oils.

With older engines, they claimed that the oil acted like a detergent and cleaned it up - suggesting using up to a litre in a tank of diesel.

There might be some detergent action which will help clean up varnish or deposits in the pump, rails and injector bodies. The higher heat level would also contribute - by slowly burning away at the unburnt deposits in the cylinder.

I guess this would also help keep the turbo cleaner as well. Not sure what effect it would have on the turbo or the emission control systems. I don't think the Nissans use O2 sensors on each exhaust but I'd imagine that even if they did, the improved combustion would only help.

There was also some discussion from a trucking company - whose entire fleet uses 2-stroke added to their fuel tanks - and that they'd done it for years. Farmers, apparently, regularly added 2-stroke oil to diesel.

The one thing that really stood out was in the independent testing. 2-stroke wasn't as good as some other things - one of those being a mix of soy-based 2% bio-diesel.

Caltex seem to be selling 5% bio-diesel, but no indication what its source is (and the testing people said there might be variations in effect due to the different sources). It might be sufficient to just buy this - I'd like to give both a try.

Then again, as you point out, it's my engine and if I want to blow it up on a hare-brained scheme then it's my beeswax.

I just thought I'd prolong this discussion with a sort-of summary of the hundreds of pages of guff I've gone and read!

 

[Deejay]

Hi Tony,

I did same as you and read every word from the entire thread (took a long time), and came up with the same conclusion as you, it's worth a try.

I put a dose into my ZD30 and she noticeably quietened down during cold start and idle, once up to temp, didn't notice as much change.

Unfortunately I sold my ZD30 Nav this afternoon and never emptied the tank so couldn't compare fuel usage against past performance. It certainly didn't make anything worse but the old ZD didn't have a DPF so part of the bonus wasn't being used in any case.

I now have a new 2.5 CRD ST-R and am waiting to finish the first couple of tanks of fuel before adding the oil so I have a base to work from for comparison of fuel economy and I also need to get used to the sounds and volume of the new engine. I'll be throwing it in, a bit like you, maybe every second tank.

I don't think economy was greatly improved, just sound reduced (less wear).

My old man put oil in his D40 and said he didn't reckon it made much difference. Another mate with a CRD Bravo added oiil and he reckoned it made quite a difference to loudness of the engine when cold, siad it quitened down and ran smoother even when warm.

The jury is still out .....

DJ

 

[Krankin]

The person that explained it the best (Yamaha_Fan) on the freel forum did say, many times during the thread, that the lowest ash 2-stroke oil was the one to use, even naming a couple of oils.

With older engines, they claimed that the oil acted like a detergent and cleaned it up - suggesting using up to a litre in a tank of diesel.

There might be some detergent action which will help clean up varnish or deposits in the pump, rails and injector bodies. The higher heat level would also contribute - by slowly burning away at the unburnt deposits in the cylinder.

I guess this would also help keep the turbo cleaner as well. Not sure what effect it would have on the turbo or the emission control systems. I don't think the Nissans use O2 sensors on each exhaust but I'd imagine that even if they did, the improved combustion would only help.

There was also some discussion from a trucking company - whose entire fleet uses 2-stroke added to their fuel tanks - and that they'd done it for years. Farmers, apparently, regularly added 2-stroke oil to diesel.

The one thing that really stood out was in the independent testing. 2-stroke wasn't as good as some other things - one of those being a mix of soy-based 2% bio-diesel.

Caltex seem to be selling 5% bio-diesel, but no indication what its source is (and the testing people said there might be variations in effect due to the different sources). It might be sufficient to just buy this - I'd like to give both a try.

Then again, as you point out, it's my engine and if I want to blow it up on a hare-brained scheme then it's my beeswax.

I just thought I'd prolong this discussion with a sort-of summary of the hundreds of pages of guff I've gone and read!

Are these Yamaha_Fan's claims or proven fact?

Yes modern engines do use exhaust sensors and have since engine management computors have been used,

and yes feel free to put in what ever concoction one wants.

I'd be interested to know if the emissions fall under EPA guidelines?

 

[Old.Tony]

According to every result - both the statements by YF and the testing conducted independently - emissions are reduced overall, by the addition of the top 9 items that they tested.

2% soy-based bio-diesel was ranked #1.

Low-ash 2-stroke oil was ranked #7.

I've no idea what Caltex are putting in the bowser. For all I know, their 5% additive could have old batter-covered fish and a few chips floating in it.

 

[Jason]

I've no idea what Caltex are putting in the bowser. For all I know, their 5% additive could have old batter-covered fish and a few chips floating in it.

Ha ha gold, but probably true!

 

[Krankin]

Like i said..feel free.

I'm not convinced and wont be trying any hocuspocus till at least my warranty is over.

Moreover, by personal experience and having worked shortly at Cummins,

having a cousin that services transport fleets in Shepparton,

No known mass failures of pumps,

working in the road, mining/ tunnelling construction industry and having talked to trade mates who install/service large standby/prime power gensets,
and

having older mates that have been into "diesel engines and 4b's for much longer than the new gen of diesels, than myself,
none of which use 2cycle oil additive.

Oh and just something to ponder,
I wonder why the auto industry did'nt go the way of 2cycle engined cars instead of the 4cycle?
apart from low down torque.

But then again what would we be if no-one experimented,
and
I,m not trying to end this thread in anyway and i hope that anyone will put their 2bobs worth in, as thats why we have this forum going.
we are here to try and educate each other.

 

[Deejay]

Hi Krankin',

Mate you really should have read the thread from go to whoa to see what all the fuss is about. Just about everyone I know who has read the thread from start to finish has tried the additive.

If your basis for opposition to the idea is no one you know has done it, then you need to get informed by reading the thread, it's worth the read from start to finish. At least if you still hod your opinion, then it is based on all available facts.

If inventors of every useful gadget known to man had listened to nay sayers who had never spoken to anyone that advocated it, then we would be living in the dark ages still.

All input is valued, but it is more respected when it is coming from a place of knowledge rather than assumption.

Cheers and good drivin'

DJ

 

[Krankin]

Yes DJ i still hold my opinion,
I've read it all and it seems youve not read my inputs entirerly and understood them.
Go ahead and use the oil, your choice,
and nowhere have i told anyone else not to use the oil additive
I for one dont take in everything the internet tells me to do,
and if inventors had talked to people who advocated an idea it wouldnt be a new invention,,
and what great place of knowledge would you be referring to, that all your friends hav tried it.
Then do tell all your groundbreaking new revelations and findings.
Be interested also to know if Nissan has approved of you wanting to use oil in your fuel and if they'll warranty your brand new engine should it fail in some way.
I rely on proven facts!
Nothing has been proven,
just as all I've written is known and not assumption as you point out,
just as I dont know on what basis you have to judge my input.

Good luck with your oil

 

[roundy]

So to throw a curve ball what do u guys think of diesel additives.

My GF's Brother has a worked up Hilux Surf and told me today he has been tryin a additive (forget name of it) but already gets an extra 70k's out of a tank says it's quieter & has dramatically reduced smoke (especially when cold). He is a builder and carry's a fair load daily.
At $40 a bottle to treat 1000l it'd save u $$ unless it has negative affects on the engine..

Thoughts?

 

[maddogrc]

i'm fairly sure i was told that the use of fuel additives is not recommended and warranty may not be covered if it is found you have used them.

i tried a bottle of the (i think) wynns 3 in 1 cleaner/restorer stuff that was around 25 bucks. i honestly couldnt tell any difference, maybe it was a bit quieter? cant say it smoked less as my car doesnt smoke unless its about to stall (when we were at mundy trek rodger was driving and it was about to stall and a nice cloud of smoke came out) so the less smoke feature was kind of useless.

i remember though i was told by one of the guys here that nissan has their own additive?

honestly i reckon its up to your own opinion whether or not you use them. i myself will probably chuck a bottle in every 5 thou just for the hell of it and i doubt its going to hurt the engine (it might but so far it hasnt made a difference).

i reckon if this stuff worked that all the big semi truck drivers would be using this as their engines do a crap load of work with heavy hauling and long trips.

its a bit like turbo timers i guess, but i've been told that some companies have turbo timers fitted as a standard to their fleet trucks (semi's to utes)

this whole adding oil to the diesel debate is just going to lead no where at this rate. i honestly think that adding diesel to the fuel MAY work by making it a bit better, but if it was such a drastic thing the diesel fuel we buy would have the oil in it or they'd design engines for extra oil injection.

thats my 2 cents, but otherwise i'm not for either side of this debate really. it may work, so if you're using it and like it then continue to use it. if you dont want to risk your engine as you think the oil may have a negative effect then dont!

 

[tweak'e]

just to bump this up.

i've just tried a bit of 2 stroke in the fuel. i was running low on fuel additive anyway. also i think the sulphur smell i noticed after the cat removal is the fuel additive, despite it saying it doesn't increase sulphur. no change in exhaust smell with the 2 stoke.

so far its certainly quieter, especially when cold. i have a small hill here to climb straight out of the drive way and it went up it this morning quieter and quicker.
when i got home and checked EGT gauge to see if it was cool enough to shut engine off, i noticed the EGT gauge was reading a bit lower than normal. so it seams to be burning either cooler or burning less fuel.

now question is, is this due to change in the way the fuel is burnt (eg flame speed or spray pattern due to change in surface tension of the fuel) or due to the way the injection pumps operates (more pressure from feed pump or extra pressure from the high pressure side). now is that changed by the extra lube or because 2 stoke oil is a bit thicker than diesel?

to throw spanner into the works........
there is a question on if the ZD30 fuel pump (vp44) was ever designed with low sulphur fuel in mind in the first place.