Adding 2-Stroke oil to Diesel

[tweak'e]

the simple reason why fuel companies wouldn't touch it is simply cost. people bitch when price of fuel goes up 10c a tank let alone $2 a tank.

i certainly don't think this is in the Hiclones league. Hiclones has plenty of people finding it doesn't do anything. with 2 stroke in diesel its hard to find someone that hasn't found an improvement.
as far as hiclones is concerned there is some science behind it and in some situations they WILL work. however just about every manufacture has been doing what hiclones do for the last 30+ years. thats why they don't work....cause its already built into the manifold/inlet design!

anyway back to 2 stoke.
i find its a lot quieter. boost at cruise seams to be down slightly. kinda hard to tell because conditions always change but straights where i'm normally at 10psi i seam to be at 9psi.
also i noticed a few times that EGT guage reads cooler when i stop at a place.
unfortunately i haven't had enough load on to do sustain high speed run up the hill to gauge max EGT's.
fuel economy, no idea. i simply do not do regular trips with regular loads.

the lack of noise would be due to less ignition lag which could mean fuel is been burnt better. that would explain the lower boost at cruise and lower egt.
the reason for it working could simply be injectors are not spraying like they should be.

the old rule.....you only get improvement when there is room for improvement.

what is of interest to me is with the old VP44 pump. its unclear if these where designed with low sulphur fuel in mind. they where a stop gap measure untill the higher pressure common rail came out (or decreased in cost).

 

[Krankin]

DJ, is it only the pro oil users that can be vocal,
is this not a free country, you guys are the ones getting uptight about it.
You can use maidens water in your fuel for all i care.


No-ones proved jack.


you cant have bonafide results from the internet or for that matter after 2 tanks of fuel.
Run your oil for 10000k or more and then pull your engine down and have a look at the backs of your inlet valves and give us a report, untill then youve got no results.
Manufacturers spend millions of dollars in R&D and a few on the internet after a couple of tanks know better...come on , wake up.

Of course if you oil something it will be quieter, doesnt mean putting extra oil in your allready oily diesel is a good thing.

Diesel engines have been around for how long?
Are any of them falling apart from premature wear cause they havnt been using 2stoke oil additive...
I think not.


But as i"ve said before feel free to use what ever you like ..its a FREE country

 

[tweak'e]

Diesel engines have been around for how long?
Are any of them falling apart from premature wear cause they havnt been using 2stoke oil additive...
I think not.

yes/no

low sulphur fuel is fairly new down under. from what i read euro goys have been using 2stroke for a long long time primary because fuel quality is fairly dodgy in some countries. i've heard reports of common rail toyotas been pulled off the market is some countries due to poor quality fuel.
also euro had low sulphur for a long time and a lot of vehicles ran pumps that where never designed for it.
then you have to factor in if the normal failures would be caused from normal use or from the fuel. ie any failures due to fuel will be hidden in those that fail normally.

commercial vehicles that do huge km's don't run rotary pumps, their pumps are usually lubed by engine oil not diesel. diesel is a fairly crappy lube at the best of times.

 

[Krankin]

yes/no

low sulphur fuel is fairly new down under. from what i read euro goys have been using 2stroke for a long long time primary because fuel quality is fairly dodgy in some countries. i've heard reports of common rail toyotas been pulled off the market is some countries due to poor quality fuel.
also euro had low sulphur for a long time and a lot of vehicles ran pumps that where never designed for it.
then you have to factor in if the normal failures would be caused from normal use or from the fuel. ie any failures due to fuel will be hidden in those that fail normally.

commercial vehicles that do huge km's don't run rotary pumps, their pumps are usually lubed by engine oil not diesel. diesel is a fairly crappy lube at the best of times.

Toyota,s being pulled from the road due to poor quality fuel has no relation to this thread,

and has Nissan come out and reported that our fuel pumps cant handle todays fuel?

I'd like to know about that if thats the case.

Well, we are here in oz and not in those other countries and
we've had commonrails for a number of years now and many hundreds of thousands of miles running and

NO FAILURES.

So here in oz, untill such a time nothings changed.

We've had low sulphur fuel here for how long now?
how many non common rail, truck, earthmoving, prime gensets, etc,etc were not designed for low sulphur fuel so far have died?

 

[Krankin]

Hey Guys,



Old Tony has gained some credibility and respect by now speaking from first hand experience and trying the experiment himself and it would seem it works for him .... or at least his wife ;-)



DJ

Just to add something about what I've found about the internet,
and I'm not saying this is the case DJ,

but Old Tony might just well be a 15 year old schoolboy with nothing better to do.
how can we tell?

 

[tweak'e]

how many non common rail, truck, earthmoving, prime gensets, etc,etc were not designed for low sulphur fuel so far have died?

none of them have rotary pumps that light diesels have. commercial motors are generally lubed by engine oil (as i said before).
as far as rotary pumps go, heaps of them die every year. unfortunately theres no way of knowing if its due to fuel or just age. lots of them blow seals which we all know is due to fuel.
most of the old rotary injected small tractors that we still have here we put additive in because of that.

Toyota,s being pulled from the road due to poor quality fuel has no relation to this thread,
and has Nissan come out and reported that our fuel pumps cant handle todays fuel?

the toyota bit was just an example of the bad fuel countries get. Aussie and NZ has had its fair share of bad fuel. still lots of vehicles in Aussie die from bad fuel every month.
i bet you have no idea how much petrol, methanol and water that gets into the diesel.

nissan will not confirm or deny if the IP was designed for low sulpur diesel, cummins etc hasn't, even bosh who designed it hasn't.

you have to remember companies don't give a toss once its out of warranty period. they certainly are not going to release data to show their vehicle is bad in any way. light vehicles are not expected to last, your meant to toss it and buy a new one.

 

[Old.Tony]

Just to add something about what I've found about the internet,
and I'm not saying this is the case DJ,

but Old Tony might just well be a 15 year old schoolboy with nothing better to do.
how can we tell?

And that's a major problem with the internet.

I guess you'll have to trust peoples' word when we meet for drinks at Christmas. If we do ... where's Dave? We need to go back to get back to this thread because time's a-wastin'.

I'd also like to just point out that I'm not trying to push 2-stroke on anyone. Someone said it had potential benefits. I did the reading, looked at the opinions and considered myself that there was little harm to be done and perhaps some possible gains to be had.

I'm not flying a 2-stroke flag, but if I'm going to have something to say on it, I'm going to either stick some in the tank and use it and come back here with the perceived results, or I'm going to say that I don't think it's worth trying for whatever reason (like several people have). I don't have the ability to provide scientifically accurate results from a test bench, so the results I give are going to be more "anecdotal" - for example, how my wife reacted. That's what happened, make of it what you will.

I did it because I was curious, because it had some appeal, because I want to be able to hold my head up and not appear like a hypocrite espousing the benefits of chucking 2-stroke in and not doing it myself (although, remember, I'm not pushing it, I'm just saying I've done it and I'm still driving around).

There's also the risk factor. I've never had a brand new car before, and here I am chucking some stuff in a >$60K car that for all the world could have been the biggest practical joke ever played and could have caused my engine to sieze. Sure, that was unlikely, but it was still a concern that I had as I poured the bottle into the tank.

I think we're getting off the point here too. We're discussing what might be the benefits or pros or cons of using it, but we seem to be attacking people for no apparent reason and accusing some people of being something they're not (at 15, I couldn't possibly be a grandfather, but the little tyke's now 6 months old and going strong, thanks).

It might be better for all of us if we get back to the discussion, and leave personal issues out of it.

 

[ants_oz]

DJ, is it only the pro oil users that can be vocal,
is this not a free country, you guys are the ones getting uptight about it.
You can use maidens water in your fuel for all i care.
...

A simple observation after a very quick review of this thread...

You (Krankin) appear to have the MOST posts in this thread - yet you claim not to care whether people add two stroke oil to their fuel or not.

In addition, if you read back through your posts, you will see a pretty consistent stream showing you being rather "intense" in your opinions on what OTHER people are doing, and how wrong THEY are.

Seems like a total contradiction to me. If you don't care and don't have anything to add, then leave the thread alone.

 

[Krankin]

And that's a major problem with the internet.

I guess you'll have to trust peoples' word when we meet for drinks at Christmas. If we do ... where's Dave? We need to go back to get back to this thread because time's a-wastin'.

I'd also like to just point out that I'm not trying to push 2-stroke on anyone. Someone said it had potential benefits. I did the reading, looked at the opinions and considered myself that there was little harm to be done and perhaps some possible gains to be had.

I'm not flying a 2-stroke flag, but if I'm going to have something to say on it, I'm going to either stick some in the tank and use it and come back here with the perceived results, or I'm going to say that I don't think it's worth trying for whatever reason (like several people have). I don't have the ability to provide scientifically accurate results from a test bench, so the results I give are going to be more "anecdotal" - for example, how my wife reacted. That's what happened, make of it what you will.

I did it because I was curious, because it had some appeal, because I want to be able to hold my head up and not appear like a hypocrite espousing the benefits of chucking 2-stroke in and not doing it myself (although, remember, I'm not pushing it, I'm just saying I've done it and I'm still driving around).

There's also the risk factor. I've never had a brand new car before, and here I am chucking some stuff in a >$60K car that for all the world could have been the biggest practical joke ever played and could have caused my engine to sieze. Sure, that was unlikely, but it was still a concern that I had as I poured the bottle into the tank.

I think we're getting off the point here too. We're discussing what might be the benefits or pros or cons of using it, but we seem to be attacking people for no apparent reason and accusing some people of being something they're not (at 15, I couldn't possibly be a grandfather, but the little tyke's now 6 months old and going strong, thanks).

It might be better for all of us if we get back to the discussion, and leave personal issues out of it.

Mate,
no-ones bringing personal issues into this, just trying to point out that the internet is not what it seems some times.

Also as I've mentioned before I'Ve spent a lot of years (in fact 32) with engines, hence my reluctance to put oil in my (in warranty) vehicles fuel.

If nissan come aboard and say they recommend it fine.

Ants oz...
Show all where i say your all wrong!
Everyone here shows there own opinions and so do i.
for your info i have a number of posts here for the plain reason of answering back to other posts, is that not what we do here.
If you cant handle people not agreeing to your opinions maybe you shouldnt be here.
Is it only the pro oilers that can have a say.
And wheres your claim to prove its a good idea or are you relying soley on the advice of the internet.

And what have you added with your last post...
NOTHING but negativity.

 

[tweak'e]

....... hence my reluctance to put oil in my (in warranty) vehicles fuel.

and neither would i. if the injection system stuffs out and they test the fuel..........it would be any easy excuse to get out of the warranty.

 

[ants_oz]

....
Ants oz...
Show all where i say your all wrong!
Everyone here shows there own opinions and so do i.
for your info i have a number of posts here for the plain reason of answering back to other posts, is that not what we do here.
If you cant handle people not agreeing to your opinions maybe you shouldnt be here.
Is it only the pro oilers that can have a say.
And wheres your claim to prove its a good idea or are you relying soley on the advice of the internet.

And what have you added with your last post...
NOTHING but negativity.

You are right - I was being negative and for that I apologise.

I don't recall claiming on any post that adding two stroke oil is a good idea. I merely reported on the results I had achieved since adding the oil to my fuel. In fact I specifically stated in my post that "I'm not going to try and talk anyone into doing anything - just relating my own direct experiences". Facts of what I posted are there for all to see.

You are right in that I got the idea off the net. OH NO! I must be a lemming because I decided to try something that I read about on the Internet (which by the way, is THE single largest source of information for this generation).

But if it means so much to you, and you want me to leave this forum (don't know WHY you brought that up, but hey - free world) say the word. I'll give you the sole word on whether I continue my membership here or not if it means so much to you.

This forum is certainly a decent source of information - and I would have thought an avid 4wder and qualified mechanic like myself would be able to contribute usefully. But if you think otherwise, then just let me know.

 

[KraftyPg]

I still say my Nav is quiet enough and doesn't need to be made quieter by adding something else to it's fuel. But jeez I wouldn't dare say it again in case it started something.

 

[Krankin]

You are right - I was being negative and for that I apologise.

I don't recall claiming on any post that adding two stroke oil is a good idea. I merely reported on the results I had achieved since adding the oil to my fuel. In fact I specifically stated in my post that "I'm not going to try and talk anyone into doing anything - just relating my own direct experiences". Facts of what I posted are there for all to see.

You are right in that I got the idea off the net. OH NO! I must be a lemming because I decided to try something that I read about on the Internet (which by the way, is THE single largest source of information for this generation).

But if it means so much to you, and you want me to leave this forum (don't know WHY you brought that up, but hey - free world) say the word. I'll give you the sole word on whether I continue my membership here or not if it means so much to you.

This forum is certainly a decent source of information - and I would have thought an avid 4wder and qualified mechanic like myself would be able to contribute usefully. But if you think otherwise, then just let me know.

.

No need to pack up your bat and ball and go home.

Life would be too boring if no-one put up an argument.

Sometimes you got to sit back,, read a post a couple of times, understand what the author is trying to get across,
instead of shooting from the hip.

 

[felixblack]

I've gone through about 10 tank loads using 2 stroke now. I'm happy with the results I'm running it through my old 2.8L hilux as well and it's definately made a improvement in noise and economy.

Krankin, I'm warry of what i read on the internerd as well. But there is no doubt it's very useful getting others opinions on a product. The only negatives I've read is from those that refuse to try it. Completely understand those who decide not to use it until there is more conclusive results. Manufactures aren't interested in testing it as they know the average Joe Blogs isn't interested in adding a further cost to there fuel bill. Any manufacture who reccomends the use of 2 stroke will only be seen by consumers as weakness in the vehicle. However some manufactures are aware of its benefits as seen with Mecedes but arn't willing to make it public. So it's left up to us to test it out.

 

[SOLID D22]

WOW...Take a chill pill everyone, were all friends here, were all nissan lovers and should damn right be toyota haters, so any negative vibes send em toyotas way.
Ok adding my bit now i personally think my nav is the quietest diesel on the market, comparing it to toyotas, mitsubishi etc etc dual cabs, 4b's etc even the current small car peugeot, although the peugeot was quiter on the inside but way louder on the outside, all the other makes still sound like a clunky diesel like they sounded 30years ago but my nav has a very subtle clunky diesel sound, i like it.

 

[skyline_man]

Krankin, if you believe everything manufacturers say about their cars then you are very very gullible. They say don't do this, don't do that. Don't modify your car, don't put an exhaust on it, don't put an aftermarket air filter, don't use aftermarket intercooler..blah blah blah. Because if you do, you will make the car worse.
Do you think that by putting a properly designed aftermarket exhaust will make your car worse? No it doesn't.
Manufacturers bring out all these rules to protect themselves. That is their number one priority.
If you do your research properly, listen to people who have modded their cars and everything is positive - then chances are, it's all good.
So far, this 2 stroke oil in the fuel is looking like a winner and i will be putting it into my brand spanking new Navara titanium edition.

 

[Old.Tony]

It's true that Nissan need to follow the factory line, which is to use their recommended parts and lubricants and fuels.

Almost every part of the car, though, has a recommendation for "Nissan or equivalent" lubricant - the automatic gearbox is an exception. The workshop manual demands Nissan ATF only.

Now that might just be Mobil or Shell or Paul Newman's Caesar Salad Dressing, but we'll never know. The radiator coolant is the same. Let me quote from the notes in the official Nissan workshop manual, Maintenance - Lubrication section, page 13/50:

*3: Use NISSAN Genuine Engine Coolant or equivalent in its quality, in order to avoid possible aluminum corrosion within the engine
cooling system caused by the use of non-genuine engine coolant.
Note that any repairs for the incidents within the engine cooling system while using non-genuine engine coolant may not be
covered by the warranty even if such incidents occurred during the warranty period.
*4: Contact a Nissan dealership for more information regarding suitable fluids, including recommended brand(s) of DEXRONTM III/
MERCONTM Automatic Transmission Fluid.
*5: Using automatic transmission fluid other than Genuine NISSAN ATF Matic Fluid J will cause deterioration in driveability
and automatic transmission durability, and may damage the automatic transmission, which is not covered by the warranty.

Scary huh? So if you're a non-Nissan mechanic, you get the word right there that using non-Nissan lubricants may void the warranty on that part of the vehicle. Those notes relate to:

Note 3: Radiator - NISSAN Genuine Engine Coolant or equivalent in its quality*3
Note 4: Transfer case - Genuine NISSAN ATF Matic Fluid D or equivalent*4
Note 5: Auto gearbox - Genuine NISSAN ATF Matic Fluid J*5

I've quoted the last part of each line there from the manual, showing that for the auto gearbox, it allows no equivalent but does for the others (even though there's a caveat on the coolant in the notes). Crafty!

But back to the point - they do this to cover themselves, although you could argue that it's a little extreme in some areas. But requiring you to use this oil or that coolant or a certain quality or blend of fuel (see the Biodiesel thread here) is a way of them at least having a decent baseline on the vehicle so that the important stuff that keeps the vehicle going is at least decent enough to do that. If they didn't insist on a certain level of quality, people who might think saving a few bucks here and there may end up putting in a lubricant, say, that doesn't protect the engine as well and thereby cause the damage themselves.

It's rightly not a warrantable thing when that happens. While Nissan might be coming across all strict and "you can't play with that, don't touch", there are good reasons for it and for the most part I'm happy to play that game as well.

For example, I'm not using biodiesel. Bought the last tank from BP (refer to the previously mentioned page - BP state they do NOT use biodiesel at all) and am quite happy with it. It has some 2-stroke (300ml of Castol Activ 2T Jaso FC) in it - still going strong.

 

[KraftyPg]

On the noise issue (given that the economy thing is just too hard to prove) has anyone who's been putting oil in their diesel actually sat their oiled Nav next to a non oiled Nav and done a real sound test on them?

I'm not suggesting that the either party is lying but when it comes to noise levels everyone's perception is so much different and can change daily just but what other noise is around. There is also the argument that like a skeptic who's would be determined to say there is no change after oiling there is the other side who may subconsciously make up their mind it was going to work and is convinced they hear less.

A mate of mine used to have a sound meter which we used on stage to make sure we weren't breaking sound limits, if I knew someone running oil through their Nav I'd look into getting the things into a booth to check them out, it's not definitive but it's a bit more definitive than one person against another. But then their would probably be arguments about one Nav having more on it than another so the argument would still be there. I guess there is no definitive way to test this so the debate will rage on.

 

[skyline_man]

On the noise issue (given that the economy thing is just too hard to prove) has anyone who's been putting oil in their diesel actually sat their oiled Nav next to a non oiled Nav and done a real sound test on them?

I'm not suggesting that the either party is lying but when it comes to noise levels everyone's perception is so much different and can change daily just but what other noise is around. There is also the argument that like a skeptic who's would be determined to say there is no change after oiling there is the other side who may subconsciously make up their mind it was going to work and is convinced they hear less.

A mate of mine used to have a sound meter which we used on stage to make sure we weren't breaking sound limits, if I knew someone running oil through their Nav I'd look into getting the things into a booth to check them out, it's not definitive but it's a bit more definitive than one person against another. But then their would probably be arguments about one Nav having more on it than another so the argument would still be there. I guess there is no definitive way to test this so the debate will rage on.

I understand what you're trying to get at. You are referring to the 'placebo effect'. Sure, i will have my doubts to if say, 5 out of 10 people who put 2-T oil in their diesel claims that their engine is running more quite and smoother. But this is virtually EVERYONE. Every single person so far who has put 2-T oil in their diesel has confirmed that it is more quite and smoother. By how much? Well, that's where a sound meter is required.
At the end of the day, you cannot deny the fact that it makes the engine more quite. You can fool some people, but you cannot fool everyone, and so far this miracle 2-T oil has managed to fool everyone who has used it. Amazing.

 

[KraftyPg]

At the end of the day, you cannot deny the fact that it makes the engine more quite. You can fool some people, but you cannot fool everyone, and so far this miracle 2-T oil has managed to fool everyone who has used it. Amazing.

The point I am trying to make is that at the end of the day neither side can make an honest claim until such figures are produced. I'm not on either side of this debate and I have my issues with both sides however if one side or the other can prove they are right then feel free to do so.

Debates are good and at times even worthwhile but lets get the facts straight, there are no facts here only figures based on individuals thoughts and ideas, real facts come when there is hard evidence to prove either side. Also I think you'll find that if you do look through this thread and others on other forums you'll find there isn't 100% success rate, thats what makes this a viable discussion topic and not a fact that car manufacturers are ignoring.