running in

[spenaroo]

I would go with the rest of them and say take it easy for the first wee while unless you want a rocket ship time bomb.

I know of a guy with a Colorado that drove home from the dealer hocked up a tandem caged trailer full of firewood and proceded to drive up and down a road with a slight hill in it at full throttle really pushing it for the fuel tank of diesel.
From then on the the thing has been a rocket ship and even the dealership said to him that they have never had one feel so powerful without chipping.
Problem being it now has approx 50,000km's on it and is starting to blow smoke so is probably only a matter of time before it gives up.

yep sounds like motorbikes,
load them right up, and flog them from the begging and they tend to fly.
however this is a race method. and fairly modern in being widespread. so not to sure on longevity issues. theory behind it is
(shamlessly stolen from another website - http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm)


What's The Best Way To Break-In A New Engine ??
The Short Answer: Run it Hard !

Why ??
Nowadays, the piston ring seal is really what the break in process is all about. Contrary to popular belief, piston rings don't seal the combustion pressure by spring tension. Ring tension is necessary only to "scrape" the oil to prevent it from entering the combustion chamber.

If you think about it, the ring exerts maybe 5-10 lbs of spring tension against the cylinder wall ...
How can such a small amount of spring tension seal against thousands of
PSI (Pounds Per Square Inch) of combustion pressure ??
Of course it can't.

How Do Rings Seal Against Tremendous Combustion Pressure ??

From the actual gas pressure itself !! It passes over the top of the ring, and gets behind it to force it outward against the cylinder wall. The problem is that new rings are far from perfect and they must be worn in quite a bit in order to completely seal all the way around the bore. If the gas pressure is strong enough during the engine's first miles of operation (open that throttle !!!), then the entire ring will wear into
the cylinder surface, to seal the combustion pressure as well as possible.


The Problem With "Easy Break In" ...
The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run.

There's a very small window of opportunity to get the rings to seal really well ... the first 20 miles !!

If the rings aren't forced against the walls soon enough, they'll use up the roughness before they fully seat. Once that happens there is no solution but to re hone the cylinders, install new rings and start over again.

Fortunately, most new sportbike owners can't resist the urge to "open it up" once or twice,
which is why more engines don't have this problem !!

An additional factor that you may not have realized, is that the person at the dealership who set up your bike probably blasted your brand new bike pretty hard on the "test run". So, without realizing it, that adrenaline crazed set - up mechanic actually did you a huge favor !!

 

[Krankin]

yep sounds like motorbikes,
load them right up, and flog them from the begging and they tend to fly.
however this is a race method. and fairly modern in being widespread. so not to sure on longevity issues. theory behind it is
(shamlessly stolen from another website - http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm)


What's The Best Way To Break-In A New Engine ??
The Short Answer: Run it Hard !

Why ??
Nowadays, the piston ring seal is really what the break in process is all about. Contrary to popular belief, piston rings don't seal the combustion pressure by spring tension. Ring tension is necessary only to "scrape" the oil to prevent it from entering the combustion chamber.

If you think about it, the ring exerts maybe 5-10 lbs of spring tension against the cylinder wall ...
How can such a small amount of spring tension seal against thousands of
PSI (Pounds Per Square Inch) of combustion pressure ??
Of course it can't.

How Do Rings Seal Against Tremendous Combustion Pressure ??

From the actual gas pressure itself !! It passes over the top of the ring, and gets behind it to force it outward against the cylinder wall. The problem is that new rings are far from perfect and they must be worn in quite a bit in order to completely seal all the way around the bore. If the gas pressure is strong enough during the engine's first miles of operation (open that throttle !!!), then the entire ring will wear into
the cylinder surface, to seal the combustion pressure as well as possible.


The Problem With "Easy Break In" ...
The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run.

There's a very small window of opportunity to get the rings to seal really well ... the first 20 miles !!

If the rings aren't forced against the walls soon enough, they'll use up the roughness before they fully seat. Once that happens there is no solution but to re hone the cylinders, install new rings and start over again.

Fortunately, most new sportbike owners can't resist the urge to "open it up" once or twice,
which is why more engines don't have this problem !!

An additional factor that you may not have realized, is that the person at the dealership who set up your bike probably blasted your brand new bike pretty hard on the "test run". So, without realizing it, that adrenaline crazed set - up mechanic actually did you a huge favor !!

thanks for that exerpt from the web article on how to supposedly to "bed in" piston rings on a bike engine, (which essentially is a race engine),
I'll keep doing the same thing on my "snail pace" diesel engines how I've done all the time.

On the rings....I beg to differ...modern rings do not need bedding in as of old times past, but they do rely on a perfectly round bore to seal!

The cross hatch or honing is done for final sizing of the cylinder bore and then importantly for the retention of crankcase oil for the lubing of the piston assy.

The actual task of "running in' with the method described by the manuals is for the "seasoning" of all the virgin metal parts of the engine.....go through many heating and cooling cycles...grow and shrink.

Yes, race engines need to be broken in as they are to be run on the track,
tho I've yet to see a race engine (bike especially) clock up 400,000k plus.

 

[Old.Tony]

I had it in my head that the combustion pressure applies down on the piston crown and seeps down the side of the piston, encountering the piston ring at 90 degrees to the piston ring's plane of movement. This would mean that there's absolutely nothing to do with the springiness of the ring at all, in relation to the combustion pressure (because at 90 degrees there's no - and I mean ZERO - offset to the vertical motion imparted on it).

That means the only thing the spring-pressure mentioned is responsible for is keeping the ring in contact with the cylinder wall.

Blow-by occurs mostly at the point where there's a gap in the ring which is why we're told (when reassembling engines) to stagger the gaps so there isn't a straight path for the combustion gas to flow through. Blow-by doesn't get in behind the ring and force it out, there ought to be very little room above and below the ring to allow gas to get in - or the piston rings will be wobbling like mad, which will round off the faces and cause them to become ineffective very quickly!

I'm sure race engines are managed differently to ours - because they're driven differently, and have different expectations.

Seriously, how many of us wanted to buy a ute that blasted out of the driveway at the dealership at 280km/h only to bring it back at the end of the week for a rebuild?

I think the moderate approach for longevity is probably the best advice we could give, and the notion of performing an early oil + filter change is something that I should have done - and didn't, being dissuaded by the dealer "don't worry about it with these new engines".

Jim ... I'm going to do the FAQ on this soon, and I'll PM it to you for comment/corrections if that's ok?

 

[old bear]

Thanks for all the different opinions fellas. I still haven't got the vechicle yet, but i will see what the dealer says when i pick it up and have a read of the manual and go from there. I think i will take the moderate approach.
Cheers

 

[Krankin]

I had it in my head that the combustion pressure applies down on the piston crown and seeps down the side of the piston, encountering the piston ring at 90 degrees to the piston ring's plane of movement. This would mean that there's absolutely nothing to do with the springiness of the ring at all, in relation to the combustion pressure (because at 90 degrees there's no - and I mean ZERO - offset to the vertical motion imparted on it).

That means the only thing the spring-pressure mentioned is responsible for is keeping the ring in contact with the cylinder wall.

Blow-by occurs mostly at the point where there's a gap in the ring which is why we're told (when reassembling engines) to stagger the gaps so there isn't a straight path for the combustion gas to flow through. Blow-by doesn't get in behind the ring and force it out, there ought to be very little room above and below the ring to allow gas to get in - or the piston rings will be wobbling like mad, which will round off the faces and cause them to become ineffective very quickly!

I'm sure race engines are managed differently to ours - because they're driven differently, and have different expectations.

Seriously, how many of us wanted to buy a ute that blasted out of the driveway at the dealership at 280km/h only to bring it back at the end of the week for a rebuild?

I think the moderate approach for longevity is probably the best advice we could give, and the notion of performing an early oil + filter change is something that I should have done - and didn't, being dissuaded by the dealer "don't worry about it with these new engines".

Jim ... I'm going to do the FAQ on this soon, and I'll PM it to you for comment/corrections if that's ok?

Yes, no probs, tho there is a vast amount more that can be explained on the the various aspects and components in an engine within the subject "running in" or as I prefer "seasoning" a new engine,
as for the most part I try and keep things as short and simple as I can, but in this case I'm sure I can add some more theory into it.

 

[old bear]

Picked up new vechicle yesterday arvo, happy with it so far. Asked the dealer about running in and he said not to worry just drive it, asked about towing and he said that would be fine, asked about locking hubs in for the first 1000 k's and he said don't worry about it if you are going to do a bit of 4wd'ing it will be alright. Had a read of the manual and it basicaly says take it easy for the first 1600 k's, DO NOT TOW until you have done 800 k's and to keep hubs locked in for 500 k's. So i think i will go by what the manual says and not what dealer told me. It came with a full tank of diesel so i locked the hubs in and have done 402 k's and used a fraction over half of a tank. Another 400 k's and i'll be able to hook up the boat and go fishing.Haven't taken any pics yet, will do that tomorrow and see if i can work out how to put a couple up.
Cheers

 

[KraftyPg]

The silly thing about running it in is that you'll never know who's advice was right. Even if you suffer problems you might blame the running in process but chances are you'll have bugger all real proof, likewise if the engine goes forever.

 

[sparra04]

let it warm up b4 you take off on cold starts
change oil and filter at 1000ks
then oil every 5000ks
renault motors are pretty good if serviced regularly
europe was building great diesels way back when we thought the old straight 6 holden/ford donks were high teck

 

[qqc d22]

mines up to 1500kms no probs yet, i wouldn't worry about warm up to much to be honest.
ive let mine warm up for 10+ mins and when you take off there is a distinct sound that diesels make when they lack in lubrication and expansion due to lack of heat.

im not saying flog it cold that's never good but i think it will do less damage/wear by letting it warm up for 45/60secs then driving it gently than letting it warm up for a prolonged period of time. the distinctive noise from the cold engine tells that.
oil change at 1000km ive been to lazy but defiantly not a bad idea, oil every 5000km that is gospel in a diesel imo.

good to see your enjoying you new ride, i did also until i worked out the speedo was wrong so at 100kmh its revving its tits off. a real 100kmh that is not by the speedo.
either way enjoy

 

[old bear]

I will put my gps in tommorow and check speedo.

 

[qqc d22]

bet ya a $5o its out

 

[Krankin]

actual speed 100k.....speedo-109k

 

[spenaroo]

thanks for that exerpt from the web article on how to supposedly to "bed in" piston rings on a bike engine, (which essentially is a race engine),
I'll keep doing the same thing on my "snail pace" diesel engines how I've done all the time.

On the rings....I beg to differ...modern rings do not need bedding in as of old times past, but they do rely on a perfectly round bore to seal!

The cross hatch or honing is done for final sizing of the cylinder bore and then importantly for the retention of crankcase oil for the lubing of the piston assy.

The actual task of "running in' with the method described by the manuals is for the "seasoning" of all the virgin metal parts of the engine.....go through many heating and cooling cycles...grow and shrink.

Yes, race engines need to be broken in as they are to be run on the track,
tho I've yet to see a race engine (bike especially) clock up 400,000k plus.

sorry,
point i was going for was that imo the best way to run in an engine is to do the revs you normally do, use it for its purpose

for a motorbike that involves floggin it, otherwise the bottom end gets run in. then when you hit higher rpm the engine struggles (doesnt run as well as it should)
an example of this is rotary's many rx8's have problems as they were driven most of their life by well females who bought the car for the looks.
they didnt rev the engine highly like it was desighned. so they now have problems where the engine bogs down and runs rough. and this doesnt seem to be fixable. unlike the ones that were driven hard, and now need new apex seals. however ones these are replaced the engine is once again fine.

how does this work into a snail deisel.
well run it how it was made, drive it where it makes its power.
no use babying it as the engine will bed in for that. and there is no use redlining it, as these are not high performance vehilces. go but an performance car instead. or better yet an motorbike


as for the race engine reaching 400,000k
race engine, no.
but i know a few guys riding older cbr's and fzr's (the fzr was befor the r6 or r1 - and a true race replica.) which have done half a million k's.
its not uncommon for sports tourers to do this (these are usually the last generation supersport, changed to be more comfortable)

 

[Krankin]

but i know a few guys riding older cbr's and fzr's (the fzr was befor the r6 or r1 - and a true race replica.) which have done half a million k's.
its not uncommon for sports tourers to do this (these are usually the last generation supersport, changed to be more comfortable)

Well i do stand corrected then...re bikes doing 1/2 million K's +.
WOW, they are true dinosaurs then..along with the riders...are they sidecared taxi bikes?

 

[spenaroo]

Well i do stand corrected then...re bikes doing 1/2 million K's +.
WOW, they are true dinosaurs then..along with the riders...are they sidecared taxi bikes?

many of these bikes have been owned by the same owner since new, and used daily.
so keeping in mind that they are early 90's, thats 20 years,
so 25000k's a year is all thats needed for this. which isnt much for a serious rider. (the sport touring guys are renowned for doing a few thousand k's over a weekend - so they achieve the magic 1/2 million k's much quicker)

obviously these bikes are maintained regualarly (this doesnt mean washed.... the fzr i know has only been washed a handful of times)

problem is many bikes are seen as a toy, a weekend play thing for summer. which is why the majority have low k's. and those with high k's dont get sold becuase the market is flooded with the less then 40,000k examples. making them next to worthless. so the obvious answer is to keep riding it till it dies.


my bike is 1999 biuld, i got it 12 months ago with 36,000k's it now has 45,000ish ks.... thats a very significant increase in use. and i still use the navara alot more........
most bikes never get to see out their life span. they get outdated and junked before it happens

 

[old bear]

actual speed 60.....speedo 66
actual speed 100....speedo 109

 

[qqc d22]

yep there all the same mate it sucks.
cause they rev there tits off at 105km/h

 

[Krankin]

many of these bikes have been owned by the same owner since new, and used daily.
so keeping in mind that they are early 90's, thats 20 years,
so 25000k's a year is all thats needed for this. which isnt much for a serious rider. (the sport touring guys are renowned for doing a few thousand k's over a weekend - so they achieve the magic 1/2 million k's much quicker)

obviously these bikes are maintained regualarly (this doesnt mean washed.... the fzr i know has only been washed a handful of times)

problem is many bikes are seen as a toy, a weekend play thing for summer. which is why the majority have low k's. and those with high k's dont get sold becuase the market is flooded with the less then 40,000k examples. making them next to worthless. so the obvious answer is to keep riding it till it dies.


my bike is 1999 biuld, i got it 12 months ago with 36,000k's it now has 45,000ish ks.... thats a very significant increase in use. and i still use the navara alot more........
most bikes never get to see out their life span. they get outdated and junked before it happens

I'd like to see one of these 1/2 million + bikes, and its rider.

 

[spenaroo]

I'd like to see one of these 1/2 million + bikes, and its rider.

the rider and bike are both on the right

 

[Krankin]

in real life...



what model year would that one be?

What % of bikes would be 1/2 million + mileage???

Are they genuine original engines...never rebuilt or repaired?