Discussion - "illegal" modifications to vehicles

[merchant]

PS.. in your last line of your post....have you informed your insurer of the mods to your vehicle as required?

and I'm struggling to understand how a vehicle, especially one that is high allready can improve its cornering abililty by raising it even further?

I certainly have because it is an added expense to the vehicle and i wanted to ensure it was covered. As i have done with my spots, canopy and every other addition.

It being my car and all i can guarantee that it corners and brakes far better than when original. When manufactured the D40 comes standard with a soft spring set up (for comfort etc). Changing to a medium or hard spring set up limits body roll and braking dip. Two parameters which impact on cornering and braking. The 40mm lift i have still falls within the aussie manufacturing vehicle standards so its fine.

 

[Krankin]

I certainly have because it is an added expense to the vehicle and i wanted to ensure it was covered. As i have done with my spots, canopy and every other addition.

It being my car and all i can guarantee that it corners and brakes far better than when original. When manufactured the D40 comes standard with a soft spring set up (for comfort etc). Changing to a medium or hard spring set up limits body roll and braking dip. Two parameters which impact on cornering and braking. The 40mm lift i have still falls within the aussie manufacturing vehicle standards so its fine.

Yeah, I'll agree that the stiffening of the springs will aid somewhat, though a correct set of shocks and anti roll bars will do more,
but still, the raising of the body won't aid in better cornering.

 

[ants_oz]

I don't know whether it's because the cops didnt know better or the people that were booked didnt bother to appeal it, regardless I'll take your word as you were in the game.

So if you agree that laws and regulations are in place to comply with safety, the safe limit on certain items comes down to the decision of a person or body? It almost becomes that person/bodies opinion, whether based on testing or case studies.

Just seems farcical in my opinion.

Edit: Sorry another question, if the police honour each states rules how do they check on them. Do they carry copies or radio through questions?

Hey Jason,

I would find it hard to believe that any one person would have an encyclopaedic knowledge of all vehicle related laws Aus-wide. In fact I would go so far as to say that many (most???) police would have only a basic working knowledge of the rules that apply to their jurisdiction. Traffic law is no different to any other kind of law - it's not the cop's duty to be judge, jury and executioner - they simply pick out something (whatever that may be) that they believe may be a problem, ping you for it, and then you can either cop it on the chin (which is basically admitting liability/fault) or take the matter further. Same as if a person gets nabbed for breaking into houses. Just because they've been arrested, doesn't mean they are guilty. It's up to the beaky (or jury depending on circumstances) to determine guilt or otherwise. Side issue...have you ever wondered why a court can only ever find a person guilty or not guilty? They can never find a person "innocent"... Neither the judge presiding nor members of the jury are or were present at the time of the commission of the alleged offence. If they were, it would be conflict of interest. So they can only find, on balance, whether the proofs have been satisfied or not. That doesn't mean the person didn't do what they were accused of (if they didn't actually do it, they could be in fact innocent), but they can only determine whether the proofs of law (guilt) have been met.

Anyway, I'm sure people from out of state in QLD have been booked for things which are legal in other states. I know it happens here too - the street machine summernats are a prime example. But again - the copper is just doing their job according to the rules as they know them.

It's a simple tenet of law that ignorance is no excuse. Basically what the means is, as a responsible citizen, it is up to you to make yourself aware of the laws applicable to acts etc that you undertake. That's why you take a driving test when you get your licence - so that you can prove you have learned some basic information about the law as it applies to your responsibility as a driver - not that you have just learned the techniques of car control. Car control is a fine ability to have - but unless you know and understand the laws related to being a driver, other road users may be endangered by your presence on the roads.

So when you or I modify our vehicles, it is OUR responsibility to modify them in a way that is compliant with the law.

Now...After this long and drawn out ramble (which I apologise for but I am sure someone out there will get some decent information from )...say I am driving my ute in QLD and I get a roadside vehicle inspection and they pick my tyre size as a problem. I can use my knowledge of the laws applicable to my vehicle to explain why it isn't at fault. They can either agree with me and let me pass, listen to what I have to say, check up (mobile phones are marvellous things aren't they) and find that I know what I'm talking about and let me go, or they can book me. But they have NO power to cancel my registration. So I go on my way and continue my holiday. When I get home, I send a letter to whichever QLD agency issued the infringement notice with a copy of the relevant laws in Canberra, and unless I get a letter back stating the fine has been dropped, I can ring any one of a number of lawyers who LOVE hammering gov't agencies (and will do it for free, coz they get media attention out of it) who will take the matter on, on my behalf.

I'm not the smartest man in the room - I'd suggest that is FAR from the truth. I've just taken the time to educate myself on matters that I have an interest in, and that I probably should know about due to my interests (4wding etc).

Hope that info helps mate.

And I agree - it IS a bad situation we are in with inconsistencies etc across state lines. But again - you have the right to lobby for change. You can always write to the leader of the opposition for example in state parliament. Ask them why, if there are a national set of guidelines for light vehicle modification, does QLD have a different set of rules?

 

[belle]

Department of transport inspections. I used to shiver when I could see them pulling over big 4wds and going over them... (my ex) had some 36" super swampers on, booked for that. Car was too high, booked for that. Blew too much smoke, booked for that - the list went on.

Last week I got booked for driving my corolla with my bottom fog lights on. $40 no points grrrrrr

They will getcha!! Dont think they are not interested...lol I have seen them set up just after the barge coming home from double island point checking cars... (rainbow beach for those non qld's)

 

[Jason]

Last week I got booked for driving my corolla with my bottom fog lights on. $40 no points grrrrrr

Yeah that law came in recently (1 Dec??) so it would be fresh in their minds, and there may be a bit of a blitz on it considering so many people do it.

Thanks for the spiel Anthony, I find it interesting.

 

[Krankin]

Department of transport inspections. I used to shiver when I could see them pulling over big 4wds and going over them... (my ex) had some 36" super swampers on, booked for that. Car was too high, booked for that. Blew too much smoke, booked for that - the list went on.

Last week I got booked for driving my corolla with my bottom fog lights on. $40 no points grrrrrr

They will getcha!! Dont think they are not interested...lol I have seen them set up just after the barge coming home from double island point checking cars... (rainbow beach for those non qld's)

Thats a cheap fine Belle,

down here, last time i saw a writeup in the local rag, it was a $160 fine.

 

[SOLID D22]

Yes, as we well know here,

we can also heavily mod our Navs (after street rego has been gained)

on street rego and drive them on the roads,

abeit illegally,

but still would not quallify for a RWC if presented so,

which you need for club reg.



Again we are getting away from the rules set out by the authorities and

pushing the boundaries set out by these rules and away from the topic.

As per VICROADS, and Club Reg,

the link i provided earlier,

its them and not your club President who give out the plates,

provided you comply with the conditions set out by the permit guidelines

which, does'nt include any of the mods we here are discussing about our Navs,

infact Club Rego cannot even be considered for our purposes here.

As for the Pro stock racer,

i can argue that the car was indeed a factory street car driven on the road

legally once,

but has been modified to suit my needs much the same way many have

argued here about their mods, and,

if you look up the VICROADS w/site,

you'll see that Club Rego is not designed to allow you to get away with

mods you cant with normal street rego.

Look it up mate, it all there.

I had my club president check out my car, all good so he signed the piece of paper, i took the piece of paper to vic roads and got my club plates, i did not and still dont need a rwc, speaking with owners of modified cars with club plates it allows them to get away with illegal mods to a certain extent but i was suprised as you are as how a race car could have the club rego.
Also guidlines followed, from what im noticing, from the era of when the car was around/made so it may seem illegal now to us but its not as it wasn't illegal when the car was produced, prime example is seatbelts, one of my vals doesnt have any rear belts and can seat 6 people. No chance will a car pass roadworthy without any seatbelts today.

 

[Krankin]

I had my club president check out my car, all good so he signed the piece of paper, i took the piece of paper to vic roads and got my club plates, i did not and still dont need a rwc, speaking with owners of modified cars with club plates it allows them to get away with illegal mods to a certain extent but i was suprised as you are as how a race car could have the club rego.
Also guidlines followed, from what im noticing, from the era of when the car was around/made so it may seem illegal now to us but its not as it wasn't illegal when the car was produced, prime example is seatbelts, one of my vals doesnt have any rear belts and can seat 6 people. No chance will a car pass roadworthy without any seatbelts today.

Yes i understand what your argument is and I've seen the things your mentioning,
but,
I must say then V/Roads are letting some of their "Own" requirements as per their website go by, as one of those conditions clearly states RWC, as it also states its NOT a permit to carry out mods not allowed on street rego,
(putting aside what people do AFTER plates/street reg is gained)
though dedicated 'Street Rods' have some more lenient conditions
or,
they rely on that club organisation to provide the correct documentation and carry the liability.

Much the same way as they do with licensed RWC providers,
and we all know one of those that will fudge an item or two.

Again it comes back to the individual, the topic of this thread and one's own RESPONSIBILITY for their OWN ACTIONS by knowingly driving an illegally modded vehicle on a public road if thats the case.

 

[Aido]

Rather than start a new thread......
Going to get a second set of tyres this week fitted to a new set of Sunny's. They will be 265 x 75 x 16 - bearing in mind that original equipment is 265 x 70 x 16. Legal or not? If this thread wasn't going at this point in time I wouldn't even bother asking as I would assume that if they fit then so be it.
What about ARB rear bars, Bull bars, side steps and side bars? Isn't the vehicle ADR approved through crash testing front rear and side to provide x amount of crumple? How do these accessories fit within the legal parameters?

 

[ants_oz]

ADR approval has very little to do with crash testing actually.

Front bars can't interfere with airbag operation. That is why the bigger companies do all their testing. Some vehicles with side airbags etc can't have decent side steps or side rails fitted. But side steps aren't a problem on the navara, and ARB rear bars are manufactured as towbars, so the have their own engineering and approval requirements (which ARB meet).

I can't tell you for certain, but I believe in Victoria there is a 15mm limit on diameter increase for wheel/tyre combination. The tyre size increase you would be looking at is roughly 14mm. So you are legal.

 

[Aido]

What about a 2" lift on a D22? - Forget about the different methods of raising the rear lets just consider the front.
I'm still not understanding how it can be done safely on the standard control arms. Ours was sitting on the lower bump stops as delivered by the dealer with a steel bar fitted and since I have "cranked" the torsion bars up to reset the ride height to factory spec I find that the suspension still bottoms and tops out as indicated by a clean surface between the stop and arm. So however the rear is reset, whether that be by extended shackles, Blocks or new leaves. The front with the standard arms could not be deemed legal because topping out the suspension would be more prone when the arms are set to they're upper most travel. This would cause one or both wheels to leave the surface when presented with a low point in the road at speed. If that is mid corner then obviously traction would be lost and the results may vary.
So is it legal to wind up the torsion bars to gain the 2"? ( more realistically 40mm)

More fuel for the fire

 

[Krankin]

I would say that if the Bull bar has 'approval for use with the vehicles front airbag system' its ok,

as far as tyres, by whats been 'mentioned here' allready, the 5mm upgrade in profile is ok also

 

[ants_oz]

What about a 2" lift on a D22? - Forget about the different methods of raising the rear lets just consider the front.
I'm still not understanding how it can be done safely on the standard control arms. Ours was sitting on the lower bump stops as delivered by the dealer with a steel bar fitted and since I have "cranked" the torsion bars up to reset the ride height to factory spec I find that the suspension still bottoms and tops out as indicated by a clean surface between the stop and arm. So however the rear is reset, whether that be by extended shackles, Blocks or new leaves. The front with the standard arms could not be deemed legal because topping out the suspension would be more prone when the arms are set to they're upper most travel. This would cause one or both wheels to leave the surface when presented with a low point in the road at speed. If that is mid corner then obviously traction would be lost and the results may vary.
So is it legal to wind up the torsion bars to gain the 2"? ( more realistically 40mm)

More fuel for the fire

Interesting stuff isn't it

You must maintain a percentage of the standard vehicle's downward suspension travel - but I can't recall the exact number off hand.

As for the rear - extended shackles are illegal in every state and territory of Aus. Full stop. Cannot be engineer approved, can't be used at all.

Torsion bar front suspension on 4wd's regularly top and bottom out. It's a limitation with the design. If the bump stops weren't taking the hit, then the torsion bar would be over-wound and would likely fail.

 

[Krankin]

What about a 2" lift on a D22? - Forget about the different methods of raising the rear lets just consider the front.
I'm still not understanding how it can be done safely on the standard control arms. Ours was sitting on the lower bump stops as delivered by the dealer with a steel bar fitted and since I have "cranked" the torsion bars up to reset the ride height to factory spec I find that the suspension still bottoms and tops out as indicated by a clean surface between the stop and arm. So however the rear is reset, whether that be by extended shackles, Blocks or new leaves. The front with the standard arms could not be deemed legal because topping out the suspension would be more prone when the arms are set to they're upper most travel. This would cause one or both wheels to leave the surface when presented with a low point in the road at speed. If that is mid corner then obviously traction would be lost and the results may vary.
So is it legal to wind up the torsion bars to gain the 2"? ( more realistically 40mm)

More fuel for the fire

There is a limit on clearance of the bump stop,
though can't remember what it is, (i thinks 1/3 of oem spec or something don't quote me),
but nowhere near 2"
which I'd be surprised if you could get that much,
and be mindfull that you would put the steering geometry way out of wack if you did raise it by those means.

 

[ants_oz]

Oh, and whether the suspension tops or bottoms out is irrelevant for approval purposes. What they are looking for is, at static height, the percentage of travel available compared to standard specification,

 

[Aido]

I would say that if the Bull bar has 'approval for use with the vehicles front airbag system' its ok,

So long as it provides protection for the occupants then everything is just Tickety Boo then? What about the occupants of the other vehicle that you hit, or the cyclist, or the pedestrian or ......
I believed that the design of new vehicles was to take all this into consideration. Take a look at these pics of commercially available bars.

So if they were compliant with factory fitted airbags would they still meet Australian design and safety standards?
Are these bars even legal? They are advertised here in Australia - thats where I got the pics - and there are number plates affixed.
Not being argumentative but just showing that if I was after a new bar and not for the sake of this post I might consider them.

 

[ants_oz]

So long as it provides protection for the occupants then everything is just Tickety Boo then? What about the occupants of the other vehicle that you hit, or the cyclist, or the pedestrian or ......
I believed that the design of new vehicles was to take all this into consideration. Take a look at these pics of commercially available bars.

So if they were compliant with factory fitted airbags would they still meet Australian design and safety standards?
Are these bars even legal? They are advertised here in Australia - thats where I got the pics - and there are number plates affixed.
Not being argumentative but just showing that if I was after a new bar and not for the sake of this post I might consider them.

People can SELL whatever they way. And I don't know, but those bars pictured might in fact be perfectly compatible (through testing) with the airbag system. But it doesn't mean they meat ADR's for design, pedestrian safety etc, so they are illegal. But as we all know, a lot of people out there don't care if something is illegal. Some would argue they all deserve to be caught and have their vehicles deemed unroadworthy.

 

[Aido]

So for the sake of argument they are illegal - NOT SAYING THEY ARE - If they were purchased in good faith from a distributor as a viable accessory for your 4by then who would be liable should for whatever reason they get undue attention? The vehicle owner, the distributor / fitter or the manufacturer?
As far as I know none of us are QC's but you can see how easy it might be to step over to the wrong side of the law.
What if a bar like this was fitted to a heavily modified vehicle that sought engineers approval for engine and suspension work - would a bar like this also require approval from the engineer thus placing the onus on the engineer for allowing it on the road?

 

[Aido]

Oh, and whether the suspension tops or bottoms out is irrelevant for approval purposes. What they are looking for is, at static height, the percentage of travel available compared to standard specification,

So to achieve the infamous 2" lift do they still fall within accepted spec?
At factory spec I have an even amount of upper and lower travel and so what is the minimum?
I'm interested now to hear from anyone who has wound up the front suspension to see what the travel is.
Only reason is because it has become a commonly accepted practice and without a doubt vehicles all over the country are being bought and sold daily after passing inspections by licensed testers.

 

[ants_oz]

So to achieve the infamous 2" lift do they still fall within accepted spec?
At factory spec I have an even amount of upper and lower travel and so what is the minimum?

Can't help you mate - I don't own a D22 so can't measure mine, and don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of vehicle specs.

I would suggest that the majority running around with a lift have raised the front beyond legal limits.