NP300 and towing.

[Amber]

Hi to you all,
I am a recent member with a 2015 NP300. I am buying a caravan which will have a tare weight of 2350kg, with a max loaded weight of 3000kg. I have seen a lot of bad press when it comes to the NP300 and towing, just thought I would check with the brains trust to see what the overall view is. I have added air bags into the springs on the rear.
Thanks
Mark

 

[tweak'e]

hi
which version D23 do you have?

imho i would go down a size in caravan.
there is no real issue with towing. i tow plenty of loads with mine. tho you may want better springs/shocks.
but the issue with all the utes is people just overload them. while technically most utes have 3500kg towing capacity, thats with an empty ute.
reality is you load the ute full of people and stuff.
3000kg towing is really up there when you consider a full ute as well. imho better to keep it down to 2500kg if your doing a lot of it. that just makes it easier on the ute as well as the driver and gives a bit of head room because no one ever actually weighs what they put in the caravan.

one of the main reasons people end up with broken springs and chassis (with all utes) is simply from overloading.
don't forget nissan has a derating figure for the ute load depending on tow ball weight.

 

[user 10312]

I'm sure when manufactures have tow ratings, that means towing the boat down to the boat ramp on a fine Sunday morning, on the blacktop, in perfect conditions.

Good rule of thumb. If the vehicle you tow exceeds the weight of the vehicle your towing it with -Forget it. This not an NP300 thing this would apply to just about all dual cab utes, Apart from some larger imported American brands.

I'm not out to shatter your plans mate but it's hard to get around the laws of physics.

Either reduce the size of your van or increase the size and weight of your vehicle.

With the van and ute loaded up it's almost a certainty you will exceed the GCM.

 

[tweak'e]

Good rule of thumb. If the vehicle you tow exceeds the weight of the vehicle your towing it with -Forget it.

i would say "if the vehicle you tow exceeds the GVW of the vehicle your towing it with -Forget it."
exceeding the vehicle weight is much the norm.
here the standard trailer is braked 2.5ton trailer which generally works well and is well under the GCM.
you would need a fully loaded 3ton trailer to go over the GCM. this is why the 3.5 ton tow ratings on most utes are BS.

 

[Old.Tony]

^ Amen.

Take a Ford Ranger as an example. 2200kg kerb weight (includes a small amount of fuel and one person, nothing in the tub and no canopy/roof bars/bull bar/winch etc). GCM (combination of car and trailer) is 6,000kg. It's rated to tow 3500kg. That means the vehicle can't be any more than 2500kg with all passengers, full of fuel, canopy/bar/winch/fridges/aux battery etc.

If you can fit all of those extras into 300kg then you're better than me.

We tow a 2550kg van, so all up (with a full tub my ute is sitting around 2900kg) we're just shy of 5.5T (with a 6T GCM). My car does struggle on hills, although I do take it fairly easily, ensuring that my coolant temp doesn't exceed 105C - I'll use the gears to help reduce the load.

So if you take it easy, even an old car like mine can tow a heavy weight, but taking it easy is the order of the day.

A word on heavy trailers: they generally have heavy ball weights, which is a downwards force on the towball adding mass to the rear of the car. Utes have a longer distance from towball to rear axle, so there's an extensive lever effect in a ute that wouldn't be as significant in a Patrol/Pathfinder. Using air bags in the suspension only makes the problem more pronounced, because stiffer rear suspension means a stiffer pivot point. Weight is removed from the front wheels and causes braking and steering loss, particularly on loose surfaces. I have tried it and compared with and without load levellers - I won't tow "heavy" without them any more.

 

[tweak'e]

ake a Ford Ranger as an example. 2200kg kerb weight (includes a small amount of fuel and one person, nothing in the tub and no canopy/roof bars/bull bar/winch etc). GCM (combination of car and trailer) is 6,000kg. It's rated to tow 3500kg. That means the vehicle can't be any more than 2500kg with all passengers, full of fuel, canopy/bar/winch/fridges/aux battery etc.

If you can fit all of those extras into 300kg then you're better than me.

dd in derating of ute load due to tow ball weight ie thats 100+ kg less, so thats more like 200kg you can have.
so yeah the 3500kg tow rating is really just marketing.

over the ditch here manufactures tow ratings are not legally binding. so we can tow as much as we want provided we can stop (like who ever tests that!).
the worse thing i see is really poor trailer brakes.

most utes have good really good brakes, abs, stability control etc. trailers have brakes from the 60's trying to stop more weight.

 

[Old.Tony]

^ Agreed. My caravan has 10" Ford hub drum brakes. Pretty sure they were on carts pulled by dinosaurs before man even left the trees.

Although, it must be said, if I hit the manual override too hard on my Tekonsha controller, the van's wheels do lock up. I wonder what discs would cost, compared to drums?

 

[tweak'e]

^ Agreed. My caravan has 10" Ford hub drum brakes. Pretty sure they were on carts pulled by dinosaurs before man even left the trees.

Although, it must be said, if I hit the manual override too hard on my Tekonsha controller, the van's wheels do lock up. I wonder what discs would cost, compared to drums?

lmao !

to do electric based disc means going to an electric over hydraulic setup. that bumps the price way up.
we have override hydraulic discs on 2500kg trailers. sadly minimum requirement is only one axle. it works so much better with brakes on both axles.
we really only do electric drums on 3000-3500kg trailers where breakaway systems are required.

its not just about braking ability, but drums overheat far quicker than discs. a few years back they started selling vented discs which improves things again.

what annoys me is that people (and the industry) limit the trailer braking to reduce wear and overheating issues. which increases the load placed on the tow vehicle.

 

[Old.Tony]

And that makes disc and pad material choice all that much more important on the tow vehicle.

We have DBA slotted rotors up front. No complaint about them, they're great. However, I had chosen some alternative pads to try, and these would fade under extended braking. I have a similar issue with my motorcycle - I bought some organic pads to see how they'd affect rotor wear (supposed to be less) and emergency braking is limited to once or twice in a 5 minute period - not good for Sydney traffic, where you have people cutting in on you all the time!

Back on Bendix 4WD pads up front and the Nav brakes consistently, although on extended downhill runs I still choose to use a lower gear, go slower and hit the manual override to help. I don't need 2.5T of tail swinging around and wagging the dog!

 

[tweak'e]

And that makes disc and pad material choice all that much more important on the tow vehicle.

not really.
whats important is to get the trailer braking right.
the problem with detuning the trailer brakes is it puts more load onto the ute, but what it really means is most of the braking is right at the front of the train with a flexi joint in the middle. really easy to get the trailer passing the tow vehicle.
the best braking for stability is actually at the rear of the trailer, as that pulls the train straight. keeping it straight allows max braking.

trailers brakes should always take care of the trailer and load. the tow vehicle brakes only need to take care of the tow vehicle, so no need for special discs or pads. for eg with ours having the trailer on makes no difference to how you go down hills, because the trailer brakes compensate for the trailer load.

the problem is people are to cheap and only find out the hard way when they need to stop in a hurry.

 

[amber.2]

Back in 1976 i bought a V8 Torana Hatchback , now i already had a 19ft 6'' Viscount dual wheel caravan with electric brakes , and before the Torana i had a HG Kingswood 186 that also pulled the caravan , i know rules have changed but i never had a problem towing with the Torana and i got plenty of looks when i pulled into a caravan park .

 

[Old.Tony]

I've found that even with a brake controller like the Tekonsha P3, gentle downhill descents where you have to ride the brake for a considerable time (Thunderbolt's Way, Mt Ousley, Bulli Pass, Macquarie Pass, Kurrajong, and several others just in NSW alone) the brakes get very warm, and on the "alternative" pads you'd try slowing a bit harder as you reached a bend at the bottom and find that you couldn't. The Tekonsha didn't register the braking effort because there wasn't sufficient deceleration - because I was just trying to maintain speed, instead of gaining speed like a boulder rolling down a steep hill.

I do keep the trailer's brakes adjusted to provide enough braking force that under normal circumstances (level ground) you can't (or can hardly) tell there's a trailer behind - the amount of braking pressure you apply with your foot is no different to when you're not towing, so I've got the trailer doing it right - for those circumstances. Downhills change the equation, and that might be the way I've got my controller mounted (limiting the range of the hall effect sensor inside) or maybe the Tekonsha isn't as good as I thought.

 

[tweak'e]

i don't know electrics all that well as our mainstay is override.
of course with override the trailer tries to push the vehicle as you go down hill which pushes the trailer brakes on.
electric brakes should either have a brake sensor on the pedal or tap into the brake light circuit so it engages as soon as you touch the brakes.

 

[Old.Tony]

The circuit becomes active when you press on the brake pedal, but uses a hall-effect sensor to determine the level of braking required - the more the hall-effect sensor senses motion, the more power is applied to the brakes. On level ground that's fine, but its achilles heel are hills, and installation of the unit at an angle. Units like the Tekonsha can handle installation angles up to a certain degree but this still affects their efficiency.

I'm not even certain that installation angle is the key. When I'm holding my foot on the brake to control the vehicle on a descent so that speed doesn't increase, I know the car is braking because it's not speeding up (so the brakes are engaged), but there's no sense of slowing - so the hall effect sensor should not detect motion and shouldn't apply the brakes. Still works the brakes though, and poor pad choice (as I've done in the past) results in poor response for that rotten 65km/h turn some ***** put right at the bottom of the hill!

 

[user 10312]

Back in 1976 i bought a V8 Torana Hatchback ,

Way off topic but hey so did I. Brand new SS 308 job. Wish I still had it. I bet you had heaps of looks.

 

[Rocky2228]

Hi Amber,
Some first hand experience that might help... I have also added poly air bags with factory standard suspension to my 2015 ST-X 4x4 Auto, fitted Bendex 4x4 ultimate front pads using the factory disc’s, added a 2nd battery with a redarc BcDc 25 amp charger. Redarc elite pro brake controller and had installed a 140 lt long range tank from new. My tyres are BF Goodrich All terrain ko2.
I picked up my first caravan 4 weeks ago, with a Tare weight 2230 kg, Ball weight 235kg and an ATM of 2770 kg. I weighed
the van on pickup 2630kg also weighted the Navara 2575kg with a tow ball weight 250kg I had set the airbags to 22 psi ( found the front had raised 15mm and the rear had dropped 25mm) and we setoff........
I have now travelled around 5000 km over two trips.
I rarely exceed 100 kph and use the auto transmission in manual mode, while towing, and my experience with my fantastic np300 ute has, once again, exceeded my expectations.
So just be very mindful of travelling weights (visit timetoroam.com.au/caravancalculator they have a very good weight calculator) and enjoy this great country ,we are....

 

[Old.Tony]

That's extraordinary, an ATM of 2770kg on a single axle!

Also wondering about the weight on pickup, if its tare was supposed to be 2230, why was it 400kg heavier - that leaves you just 100kg for gear (cables, hoses etc), water, food, clothing and toilet. Or have I read that wrong?

 

[Rocky2228]

Hi Tony,
Maybe I should have explained my weight calculations a bit clearer.
When we left the dealership (picking up the van) in Victoria, we had all ready loaded the van with food, water, generator, clothing and all other travel gear ready for a 4 night trip. We then had the van weighted down the road at a weigh station just to the make sure we had correct balance over the axles and within the manufacturers ATM requirements.
The caravan is fitted with G&S Chassis Controlled ride with independent ALKO / Airbag man suspension with all automatic adjustment for on the move. Maybe that is why I have an ATM of 2770KG on the caravans compliance plate.
On a side note regarding weights, the Navara was just legal with around -5 kg left to use due to an 80KG penalty allowance that is required to be added to the tow ball weight and subtracted from the vehicles GVM that some manufacturers, Nissan included, have added to there fine print specifications (read the towing label inside the driver’s door panel. The new 2021 Navara has deleted the penalty requirement and added an addition 50 KG capacity to the ball weigh a big PLUS for towing....
Hope this clears up some missing details.

 

[Old.Tony]

That's a relief, I tell ya ... we had a double-axle van that tared at 1550kg with an ATM of 1750kg (and it had 2 60L water tanks!) so there was SFA room for provisions/clothing/etc. To make things more concerning, a neighbour bought a van that not only exceeded its own ATM (when empty!), its ball weight so over-exceeded the tow hitch's capacity that he bent the tow hitch on the way from the dealer to his house. There was no way that van was ever going anywhere (and it's back at the dealer, likely to be scrapped it's such a behemoth).

So I was fearing the worst for you, in the van's capacity - some dealers like fiddling the numbers. Good to see that isn't the case here. Enjoy!