Dual Intercooler

[Krankin]

According to my ECU, the air conditioning compressor adds about 8% load to the engine. At idle, typical load is about 21% and with the air conditioning on the load rises to 29%. I don't know what that would equate to in terms of horsepower.

those in the auto ac industry tell me the the ac uses typically the same amount of power that is used to drive the vehicle with the windows down.

 

[Bluenavara]

Consider doing a front mount intercooler plus water injection. The WI kits don't have to cost much more than a good IC core, and you don't need fancy progressive controllers on diesels.

 

[DieselTuner2]

On most cars the ac will sap about 6-8kw out of it when its running at cruise.

On full throttle closer to 10kw if it stays active.

On alot of diesels it does stay active regardless of load and only turns off based on water temp. On a petrol it is almost always off past 50-60% throttle opening.

It can be done but you wont gain much if anything. Making 10kw out of air cooling alone requires temp drops in the 30+deg range. You wont achieve this with the ac system thats in any car from factory.

It cools 40deg air down to about 18deg at a relatively slow rate, having to cool only a very minimal amount of air in the process.

Imagine having to cool 150+deg air down to 20-30deg when its flowing in at 400+CFM?

Im not an aircon expert, but I imagine air con would cool about 5-10cfm in operation dropping the temp only ~30-40deg?

Like bluenav said. Water or water/meth injection is dirt cheap comapred to some other types of mods.
Even a modest amount will net 10-20kw gain with ease and drop intake and exhaust temps considerably.

Safe, Cheap, Easy power.
Nothing like gas or petrol injection which is both expensive and dangerous to the engine.

 

[Krankin]

Imagine having to cool 150+deg air down to 20-30deg when its flowing in at 400+CFM?

Im not an aircon expert, but I imagine air con would cool about 5-10cfm in operation dropping the temp only ~30-40deg?

but your outside air comming into the intake isnt 150deg+ (unless you drive in an oven) and your auto ac shoul be blowing under 5degC into the cab when working acceptably.
I'm sure if your "refridgerated IC"
was made effeciently one could get the intake air down to a temp much lower than a standard IC or one cooled with water spray and or fanned.

On the other hand 'I' wouldnt be bothering with any of the options except maybe if I was bored I would go the way of a front mount at the most.

By formula calc the 2.5's air capacity is 176cfm @ 4000rpm without factoring turbo, etc for instance.

 

[Bluenavara]

I did the whole hp/airflow/compressor map calculation for the Navara once, it came to about 290-320cfm@4000rpm stock.

Edited to add: Sorry, that's for the D40, not the D22.

 

[Old.Tony]

but your outside air comming into the intake isnt 150deg+ (unless you drive in an oven) and your auto ac shoul be blowing under 5degC into the cab when working acceptably.
I'm sure if your "refridgerated IC"
was made effeciently one could get the intake air down to a temp much lower than a standard IC or one cooled with water spray and or fanned.

On the other hand 'I' wouldnt be bothering with any of the options except maybe if I was bored I would go the way of a front mount at the most.

By formula calc the 2.5's air capacity is 176cfm @ 4000rpm without factoring turbo, etc for instance.

The air coming out of the turbocharger is going to be 150C+ easily. The input side of the intercooler sees those temps all the time.

With an intake stroke every 2 revolutions, at 4000rpm the engine draws in 2.5 litres (2488cc really, but let's make it easy) 2,000 times per minute - so that's 5,000 litres of air per minute = 176cfm, so your calc matches mine.

At boost = say 1.5atmo = just multiply that by 1.5, or 7500 litres of air per minute.

Gotta love an efficient, clean air filter huh?

I still contend that the cheapest solution to improve the cooling by the largest margin (for $ spent) is a misting system.

This would assist the air conditioning and radiator as well, as some of the spray would undoubtedly make its way past the intercooler.

 

[Krankin]

So,
I will argue that, going by the posts in the last page or so that infact the stand alone 'IC' does jack shit to cool the intake air!

 

[Old.Tony]

I'm not sure I'd make that conclusion, Jim. The standard IC has a lot of tubes = very large surface area = plenty of opportunity to exchange heat. More cores = more opportunity.

If you add a wetting agent to cool the outer surface through evaporation you're just improving the heat exchange rate - the rate of thermal transfer is proportional to the difference in temperature.

 

[tatty]

Your right in a way however with the refridgeration, the power for it has come from somewhere.
The problem you can't get around it's Entropy- the second law of thermodynamics.
Put simply there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Alternator. It's running anyway, so electricity is free

whatever floats ya boat mate...just puttin it out there...

for me personally it would be a very cheap option as my bro inlaw runs a large transport ac/refridgeration Co,
and also we have a fridgy at my work in our dept so basically the job would only cost me my own labour time
and even so without the above, it wouldnt be hugely costly imho,
and,
for those in pursuit of that extra bit...whats costly???

Well, the hoses for air conditioning are not cheap. They're extremely thick, special thermo stuff to withstand the pressure, and block out heat exchange. So lets say we mix our current aircon hoses with a couple of new ones to extend our aircon lines to wrap around the IC. We will need new hoses, extra joins, connecting thread, sealing pieces, plus a full system regas. That's adding up to 400$ at least.

Remember this is air con, you can't just use coolant hoses and tridon hose clamps.

those in the auto ac industry tell me the the ac uses typically the same amount of power that is used to drive the vehicle with the windows down.

Weathershields affect the amount of energy needed, too. I would probably say it takes more energy to have a car running with 2 front windows down that the air con.

 

[Krankin]

Well, the hoses for air conditioning are not cheap. They're extremely thick, special thermo stuff to withstand the pressure, and block out heat exchange. So lets say we mix our current aircon hoses with a couple of new ones to extend our aircon lines to wrap around the IC. We will need new hoses, extra joins, connecting thread, sealing pieces, plus a full system regas. That's adding up to 400$ at least.

Remember this is air con, you can't just use coolant hoses and tridon hose clamps.



Weathershields affect the amount of energy needed, too. I would probably say it takes more energy to have a car running with 2 front windows down that the air con.

yes it does drag considerably, windows down.....

re the extra ac gear....(and whats the cost of any of the other options?)
yes its specialised gear, but as you've seen where I've mentioned that we have a fridgy and fridgy dept at my work,
and, my bro inlaw runs the floor at a transport fridge/cooling Co...well lets just say again that it would only cost me my own personal time,
and I'm sure there are others around that have friend in the industry.

Tony,
I'm just going by some of the posts here that dismiss the air cooling capacity of a refridgerated IC and that it would not cool the air and that in fact then, if that were the case, a standard IC would infact just be a piece of expensive aluminium resistance along the intake tract.

 

[tatty]

re the extra ac gear....(and whats the cost of any of the other options?)
yes its specialised gear, but as you've seen where I've mentioned that we have a fridgy and fridgy dept at my work,
and, my bro inlaw runs the floor at a transport fridge/cooling Co...well lets just say again that it would only cost me my own personal time,
and I'm sure there are others around that have friend in the industry.

Well if you can get it cheap and you want to do it then go for it! But I think I still have to say, who could be arsed? It seems like way too much effort to me.

The cost of other options? Well, much cheaper. For eg, I fitted a TMIC for $50. Intercooler was free from a guy doing a clear out, I wandered into a panel beaters who had a spare hood scoop and said I could take it, I had extra piping lying around, all I needed to pay for was a custom turbo outlet pipe.

 

[Krankin]

Well if you can get it cheap and you want to do it then go for it! But I think I still have to say, who could be arsed? It seems like way too much effort to me.

The cost of other options? Well, much cheaper. For eg, I fitted a TMIC for $50. Intercooler was free from a guy doing a clear out, I wandered into a panel beaters who had a spare hood scoop and said I could take it, I had extra piping lying around, all I needed to pay for was a custom turbo outlet pipe.

at this time in life I wouldnt have the time for either form of extra IC cooling even if it costs me jack,
though 20 year ago I would have done it at the mere mention of it
or once the sprogs get a life and leave me in peace I can return to my mancave and get back to it.

PS...yeah maybe 50 for the TMIC, but how much for a front mounted IC install if one had to buy as has been mentioned?

 

[Krankin]

The air coming out of the turbocharger is going to be 150C+ easily. The input side of the intercooler sees those temps all the time.

I take it then that the rubber connection hose between the turbo air outlet/ IC inlet is rated @ 150+ deg C.

I will do some air temp data collection at that point in the near future.

 

[Old.Tony]

It ought to be. From what I've been reading, the temps rise to near 200C on high boost pressures.

 

[Krankin]

It ought to be. From what I've been reading, the temps rise to near 200C on high boost pressures.

it aint silicone rubber and it looks just like standard radiator hose..

I'll put a temp sensor in there anyways soon as I get a moment.

 

[DieselTuner2]

You will see around 130deg on boost for most factory setups.
The further out of the efficiency zone of the turbo you get and the higher the boost is, the hotter the air gets.

When I get the chance next I will log before and after temps with a waterspray on a tmic.

Some of the biggest differences are shown with the vehicle stationary and idling.

On most subaru's using TMIC, the Post IC temp will be 50-55deg with bonnet shut on the dyno idling with around 20-30kph of air going over the car (top fan only).
and 28-29 with a steady mist of water on the cooler.