Dual Intercooler
- Thread starter RustyNav09
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Bvandermaat
Member
Thanks Bryce,
I have just found a PWR kit which looks like it would suit me nice.
Will have to travel up to Ormeau and have a look as I don't have much space to work with.
I have just found a PWR kit which looks like it would suit me nice.
Will have to travel up to Ormeau and have a look as I don't have much space to work with.
Sorry, didn't realise he wanted a thermo fan for the TMIC.By the way,the extra fan he wanted was for the IC not to keep the radiator cool, its for the top mount IC and its not a good thing to have engine coolant too cold.
Honestly, if it's turbo, running two thermo's isn't a bad thing really at all. Engine needs to be as cool as possible due to all the extra load it's being put through.
Sorry mate the terminology is being mucked about a bit. I should probably correct myself.
Pressure can't escape into nothing. We're talking about a fluid here, it simply cannot disintegrate into nothing, once it's in the tubing, it's there. So the same amount of air coming out of the turbo is what goes into the intake (that was what I was trying to say! maybe I need to get back to school...). Differences in pressure from the turbo to the and the throttle body is due to a change in diametre and turbulence caused by piping, joins, IC's etc.
But yes, there is a pressure difference b/w turbo outlet, AFM and throttle body, but rather the MAF will remain the same the entire piping journey. Hope that clears up my pov.
I don't know about others, but our experience with glycol IC's are terrible. They have broken in the past, and you have to realise a broken glycol will mean water in your engine. That is not good. At all.
When it comes to keeping things cool in your piping, just get some exhaust heat wrap. Your engine bay will look fugly as all else, but it will do the job just fine.
There's another component to the equation for us to consider.
When the temperature of air decreases, its volume decreases as well. That's precisely why we want the intercooler in the first place. A certain number of air molecules occupying a certain amount of space will occupy less space when cooled. This also means that in a given amount of space, cooler air will have more molecules present than warmer air.
More air molecules means more combustion. It also means a greater ratio of expansion in the combustion chamber - the denser air/fuel mixture will still heat up to the same (similar) temperature as in the hotter (non-intercooled) engine but with more air molecules involved, the expansion happens with more force, so an intercooled engine delivers more power and more torque than a non-intercooled one.
AND, the volume of the air - and its pressure - across an intercooler MUST drop because the temperature drops - it's not just the restriction, but as pointed out it's a closed system, the gas can't go anywhere but into the engine.
When the temperature of air decreases, its volume decreases as well. That's precisely why we want the intercooler in the first place. A certain number of air molecules occupying a certain amount of space will occupy less space when cooled. This also means that in a given amount of space, cooler air will have more molecules present than warmer air.
More air molecules means more combustion. It also means a greater ratio of expansion in the combustion chamber - the denser air/fuel mixture will still heat up to the same (similar) temperature as in the hotter (non-intercooled) engine but with more air molecules involved, the expansion happens with more force, so an intercooled engine delivers more power and more torque than a non-intercooled one.
AND, the volume of the air - and its pressure - across an intercooler MUST drop because the temperature drops - it's not just the restriction, but as pointed out it's a closed system, the gas can't go anywhere but into the engine.
Isn't it the other way round? Like how ice is the largest amount of volume, then water, then air takes the smallest amount of volume?
Bvandermaat
Member
When things go from gas to liquid and then liquid to solid the molecules get closer together.
So Colder air would be denser then hot air, taking up slightly less space. Since the air molecules combine with the fuel to create the explosion the more molecules in the least amount of space would create the best burn.
Which is why Intercoolers are fitted.
The Gas version of water is Steam, which is not something I would really want to be inducting.
The reason that ice is larger than water is that the oxygen in the water all combines to one spot as the water freezes which pushes the ice away from the oxygen.
This is my understanding of the world anyway.
So Colder air would be denser then hot air, taking up slightly less space. Since the air molecules combine with the fuel to create the explosion the more molecules in the least amount of space would create the best burn.
Which is why Intercoolers are fitted.
The Gas version of water is Steam, which is not something I would really want to be inducting.
The reason that ice is larger than water is that the oxygen in the water all combines to one spot as the water freezes which pushes the ice away from the oxygen.
This is my understanding of the world anyway.
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RustyNav09
Member
so back to me lol talk about thread hijack. hehehehehe na i dontcare. all info is good info. im thinking about ringing PWR at Ormeau and seeing how much $$ they want to weld a thicker core to my top mount intercooler. which in theory should lower temps and cause it can take on more air etc etc etc. then i will add a water intercooler misting spray to keep the core cool when its needed triggered by a switch in the cabin. i will Tpiece into the washer bottle line and put a seperate motor to run the sprayers. then when i convince the wife i need bodylift for her comffort ill stick a thermo fan under the top mount.
Rusty
Rusty
D21 dualcab Z24 4X4
Member
They dont seem to respect how much effort we go to just to make them comfortable. After all, its not easy fitting all this gear onto the 4by for "their comfort AND safety"
K
Krankin
Guest
Oh....and I thought he was getting a bodylift for the wife, to make him feel better...
glad you cleared that one up.
DieselTuner2
Member
To turn water into steam, it takes alot of heat.
If you introduce a fine mist of water into the engine, that water sucks all the heat out of the air stream.
Once the temp is high enough to turn it into steam (which is very high as the water is under considerable pressure during combustion)
It then expands, adding usable force onto the piston during its power stroke.
So yeah, water is one of the best things you can add to any diesel or petrol engine to reduce combustion temp, and increase power at the same time.
RustyNav09
Member
Yes a bodylift for the car lol. they never understand that we go through the efforts of keeping them comfortable everywhere we go. So misting the outer core of the intercooler is the way to go and also getting a larger core.
Rusty
Rusty
Very interesting concept Northside. That "very high" temperature is around 230 degrees. Provided your water mist is infinitely fine and your quantity of water is not too much for all of it to change from saturated steam to superheated steam, you're potentially looking at a direct trade-off of cylinder temperature for cylinder pressure.
Best thing to come out of this thread
Spend a little time about what you just wrote relating to the quote you posted
dont get wrapped up in phase changes
K
Krankin
Guest
WHAT!!!!!!!
so you didnt like my supercharger idea....shame on you
Nahhh
Superchargers are parasites. The V8 was up there though
DieselTuner2
Member
Thats dead wrong.
Yes it helps prevent det on petrol engines.
It cools the intake charge temp.
Drops EGT by a large amount when setup correctly.
Expands when it changes state helping cylinder pressure
Cleans the engine's internals
When used 50/50 with Methanol, also adds more oxygen and fuel into the cylinder for even more power (Along with the other benefits)
Lindsay has pretty much said what I wanted to say. For quite some time "water injection" has been touted by some to "steam clean" the engine internals and blow all the crap out the exhaust. Naturally, these days, that crap lands in our CATs and DPFs (where fitted). It doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but you really need to be careful with it.
At a typical boost pressure of 19psi the boiling point of water doesn't rise much (107C). In our combustion chambers (I think we're running about 18:1 compression ratio?) we have 19*18 = 342psi and at that pressure, water boils at 210C. An unintercooled engine will have a charge air temp of 100-150C (these engines cannot run boost pressures too high, or they risk raising the charge air temp to far beyond the flash point of the fuel causing detonation). Intercoolers of course cool the charge air so that higher boost pressures can be run without premature ignition of the fuel.
Still, a diesel boosting at about 19psi will ultimately provide a charge temperature in the region of 150-200C. Any water in the intake would be close to boiling, it would partly be changing to gas anyway as an evaporate.
If the amount of water is small enough to prevent dampening the combustion process and is distributed evenly through the chamber (rather than be present as a drop of water) then the introduction of the diesel fuel (and its subsequent combustion) raises the internal temperature to somewhere around 700C or better - that is going to flash-boil the water, instantly changing its state from liquid to gas, increasing the expansion rate inside the combustion chamber and forcing the piston down harder.
It would be quite critical to ensure that the water was in a mist, or ultra-fine droplet form rather than in big drops. The smaller the droplets, the more exposed surface area of water and the faster it absorbs the heat energy and changes state. A large drop of water might take considerably longer to change state - perhaps long enough that the combustion process has ended - thus defeating the purpose. If I was designing something to achieve this, I'd look at those piezo water mist things you see in little garden fountains that produce the nice fog effect and use those to provide a source for the mist. Alternatively, a high pressure rail feeding injectors similar to our diesel injectors would be needed to produce an atomisation level sufficient to not present any problems.
Anyone reading between the lines here would have spotted something rather crucial to our engines. While theoretically you can boost the hell out of a diesel until you burst the thing from too high a pressure, the higher the pressures involved, the higher the temperature required for combustion and therefore it is possible to ruin an engine by overboosting.
This is interesting stuff. I wonder what the maximum boost is that we could run our engines at, given the changes to vapour points etc?
At a typical boost pressure of 19psi the boiling point of water doesn't rise much (107C). In our combustion chambers (I think we're running about 18:1 compression ratio?) we have 19*18 = 342psi and at that pressure, water boils at 210C. An unintercooled engine will have a charge air temp of 100-150C (these engines cannot run boost pressures too high, or they risk raising the charge air temp to far beyond the flash point of the fuel causing detonation). Intercoolers of course cool the charge air so that higher boost pressures can be run without premature ignition of the fuel.
Still, a diesel boosting at about 19psi will ultimately provide a charge temperature in the region of 150-200C. Any water in the intake would be close to boiling, it would partly be changing to gas anyway as an evaporate.
If the amount of water is small enough to prevent dampening the combustion process and is distributed evenly through the chamber (rather than be present as a drop of water) then the introduction of the diesel fuel (and its subsequent combustion) raises the internal temperature to somewhere around 700C or better - that is going to flash-boil the water, instantly changing its state from liquid to gas, increasing the expansion rate inside the combustion chamber and forcing the piston down harder.
It would be quite critical to ensure that the water was in a mist, or ultra-fine droplet form rather than in big drops. The smaller the droplets, the more exposed surface area of water and the faster it absorbs the heat energy and changes state. A large drop of water might take considerably longer to change state - perhaps long enough that the combustion process has ended - thus defeating the purpose. If I was designing something to achieve this, I'd look at those piezo water mist things you see in little garden fountains that produce the nice fog effect and use those to provide a source for the mist. Alternatively, a high pressure rail feeding injectors similar to our diesel injectors would be needed to produce an atomisation level sufficient to not present any problems.
Anyone reading between the lines here would have spotted something rather crucial to our engines. While theoretically you can boost the hell out of a diesel until you burst the thing from too high a pressure, the higher the pressures involved, the higher the temperature required for combustion and therefore it is possible to ruin an engine by overboosting.
This is interesting stuff. I wonder what the maximum boost is that we could run our engines at, given the changes to vapour points etc?
user 10312
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Ok, good points there Tony.
Back in my petrol turbo revehead days we use to have the water injection nozzels right at the throat of the carby air intake and I would imagine gave us good atomization of the water/alchol mix. It was all very crude we used number drills to slowly open up the nozzel size untill the desired effect, no detonation. The other trick was adjusting the cut in/ cut out point of the water injection so it was only injecting on the progression of boost. It was all draw thru carby stuff. By todays standards we probably looked like beginers or perhaps pioneers
as turbos were only just starting to be used on petrol engines.
As for the steam clean effect I do remember seeing evidence of this when changing head gaskets, and we done a few The piston crowns and exhaust ports were as clean as a whistle. Although we used to polish just the exhaust ports to almost mirror finish, one to stop the carbon but most importantly to stop the heat soak into the head and carry as much heat/energy to the turbo as possible
They were fun days i just wish I had some of the money back now.
Back in my petrol turbo revehead days we use to have the water injection nozzels right at the throat of the carby air intake and I would imagine gave us good atomization of the water/alchol mix. It was all very crude we used number drills to slowly open up the nozzel size untill the desired effect, no detonation. The other trick was adjusting the cut in/ cut out point of the water injection so it was only injecting on the progression of boost. It was all draw thru carby stuff. By todays standards we probably looked like beginers or perhaps pioneers
as turbos were only just starting to be used on petrol engines. As for the steam clean effect I do remember seeing evidence of this when changing head gaskets, and we done a few
The piston crowns and exhaust ports were as clean as a whistle. Although we used to polish just the exhaust ports to almost mirror finish, one to stop the carbon but most importantly to stop the heat soak into the head and carry as much heat/energy to the turbo as possible They were fun days i just wish I had some of the money back now.
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