Dual Intercooler

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RustyNav09

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Ok well I'm not sure if its been covered and couldn't find it anywhwere. I can get my hands on a newish xr6turbo intercooler and was thinking of mounting it behind the bullbar and plumbing my top mount intercooler into it then feed it back into the intake manifold where it would usually be on the cold side of the top mount. I'm not sure if it will work and whdt dramas if any would I coke across?

Rusty
 
Just take the top mount out and run the front mount.

Two intercooler cause alot of flow restriction. Any extra cooling is negated by this to the point of being worse than one half good intercooler.
 
Rusty , why would you want to do this without knowing 1st what the delta T's are 1st across you IC ?..... have you upped the boost levels and running the compressor map beyond its sweet spot?
 
You could do both, it'll save you having to replace the bonnet, but I think you'll create some issues.

Intercooler flows are generally not too bad particularly under pressure (Fluid Dynamics 101 covered the reasons for this in about chapter 3). Pressurised gas when restricted simply increases velocity minus some laminar flow at the walls and junctions but pressure keeps the whole lot moving. However, this comes at a price - extra energy, and there's little in the way to produce that - so you might find flat spots, I'd guess in particular just as you're coming off idle.

If you're going to try it, use metal tubing as much as possible, my guess is the tubes between the intake manifold and the top intercooler (so that includes everything around the front intercooler) will collapse when the turbo is off-boost and the engine rpm is climbing - like when you're putting your foot down at the lights to take off. It's the worst time for it to happen.

The top-mount intercooler isn't as effective because it's being heated from below. Your temperature drop across the top intercooler will be measurable but nowhere near as significant as the front-mount, sitting in the cool airstream.
 
Hmmm interesting. I have upped boost to 19psi and engine temps do climb quickly when putting the right boot down. I was thinking about body lifting then putting a thermo fan under my top mount on a switch. Then add a mist sprayed to add extra cooling. Problem is now that I can't find a low profile thermo fan that is going to fit. I would like something less then about 30mm thick but they only are around the 50mm. So I was thinking dual intercoolers and making the front one a hi flow from a xr6t would be ideal. The core of it is a lil thinner then my top mount but I would guess would have a better or same flow rate as my top mount.
 
My concern would be turbo lag, there would be a fair bit of extra intercooler volume for the turbo to pressurize before the boost kicks in. I would say stick with one or the other. More necessarily isn't better.
 
You could do both, it'll save you having to replace the bonnet, but I think you'll create some issues.

Intercooler flows are generally not too bad particularly under pressure (Fluid Dynamics 101 covered the reasons for this in about chapter 3). Pressurised gas when restricted simply increases velocity minus some laminar flow at the walls and junctions but pressure keeps the whole lot moving. However, this comes at a price - extra energy, and there's little in the way to produce that - so you might find flat spots, I'd guess in particular just as you're coming off idle.

If you're going to try it, use metal tubing as much as possible, my guess is the tubes between the intake manifold and the top intercooler (so that includes everything around the front intercooler) will collapse when the turbo is off-boost and the engine rpm is climbing - like when you're putting your foot down at the lights to take off. It's the worst time for it to happen.

The top-mount intercooler isn't as effective because it's being heated from below. Your temperature drop across the top intercooler will be measurable but nowhere near as significant as the front-mount, sitting in the cool airstream.

Tony, in fluids dynamics we learn that the pressure drop is directly related to the flow velocity..is double the flow rate then the losses are square. Folks keep that in mind.....you can be creating issues NOT solving them with out good quality data
 
Hmmm interesting. I have upped boost to 19psi and engine temps do climb quickly when putting the right boot down. I was thinking about body lifting then putting a thermo fan under my top mount on a switch. Then add a mist sprayed to add extra cooling. Problem is now that I can't find a low profile thermo fan that is going to fit. I would like something less then about 30mm thick but they only are around the 50mm. So I was thinking dual intercoolers and making the front one a hi flow from a xr6t would be ideal. The core of it is a lil thinner then my top mount but I would guess would have a better or same flow rate as my top mount.

Rusty, if the engine temps are rising even if ICT's where the same as before the cooling system is attempting to remove approx the same amount of heat load /hr as the equivalent xtra power output from the motor. Your cooling system is just telling you it has no more reserve .

You need to find out what the compressor map looks like at a particular mass flow..then you can X check efficiency islands
 
My concern would be turbo lag, there would be a fair bit of extra intercooler volume for the turbo to pressurize before the boost kicks in. I would say stick with one or the other. More necessarily isn't better.

Correct Josh, also with 2 heat exchangers it becomes difficult to extract heat at lower temps ie the 2nd IC.
 
my 2c worth...

get rid of the turbo and fit a supercharger.

better still...stuff a V8 in:rock:

:cheers!:
 
Tony, in fluids dynamics we learn that the pressure drop is directly related to the flow velocity..is double the flow rate then the losses are square. Folks keep that in mind.....you can be creating issues NOT solving them with out good quality data

Absolutely, hence the reference to additional energy required to maintain it.

Not the best solution. Personally I'd dump the top-mount, install the front mount and get a bonnet without the hole in it.

The supercharger works too!:rock:
 
If you need extra charge air cooling I'd look at water or water/Meth injection. Possibly as well as a water sprayer on the outside of the intercooler, plus the fan. I know the patrol guys used to get spa brand fans for their intercoolers, I don't know how thick they are tho...
 
Just take the top mount out and run the front mount.

Two intercooler cause alot of flow restriction. Any extra cooling is negated by this to the point of being worse than one half good intercooler.
This.
Tony, in fluids dynamics we learn that the pressure drop is directly related to the flow velocity..is double the flow rate then the losses are square. Folks keep that in mind.....you can be creating issues NOT solving them with out good quality data
Bloody engineering students!

Thing is, there is no escape for the pressure, only the engine. So it becomes a closed off, pressurized system. So there will be no pressure loss. Conservation of mass. When the turbo is spooling, the air has to go somewhere. So there will be no pressure loss.
What can/will happen, however, is that because of the additional turbulence created by extra piping, joints, a 2nd intercooler etc, is that the turbo will have to work harder (much harder!) to put the back pressure behind it. Now this can cause turbo failure in the long run, but essentially all the pressure you'd want to be built up by the turbo just won't happen, as the exhaust gasses won't put enough pressure on the turbo. Not at 19psi, anyway.
Remember, as well, extra piping and 2 intercoolers would cause A LOT of turbo lag.

Diesel engines can only take a certain amount of air. When you are pumping in some hefty boost, it almost becomes pointless, as the pressure just gathers in the piping etc until a valve opens to put the air in the chamber, and the chamber will only take so much (because diesels run such high compressions).

Hmmm interesting. I have upped boost to 19psi and engine temps do climb quickly when putting the right boot down. I was thinking about body lifting then putting a thermo fan under my top mount on a switch. Then add a mist sprayed to add extra cooling. Problem is now that I can't find a low profile thermo fan that is going to fit. I would like something less then about 30mm thick but they only are around the 50mm. So I was thinking dual intercoolers and making the front one a hi flow from a xr6t would be ideal. The core of it is a lil thinner then my top mount but I would guess would have a better or same flow rate as my top mount.
At 19psi, of course it would! The explosion has probably twice the amount of air intended in the chamber!

A thermo fan won't do a great deal for the engine. I'm not sure what your car has, but maybe invest in twin thermo fans if you don't have that, and you could wire one up so it's always on, keeping the radiator really cold, so when you demand more power (and thus more heat) out of your engine it'll be nice and chilled.

My 5 cents. Do a FMIC. Ensure you have it exposed to air nicely. You can always hook up some water mist spray to it as well, to keep the heat it cops from the engine bay to a minimum. Then keep your hood scoop, and put an oil cooler (on top) there instead. That'll keep your engine safe when you're running 20psi.
 
in "simple non engineering talk"..

get rid of the engine mounted IC and fit the largest IC you can at the front for best cooling and a good cold air intake..snorkel or ducting out to the front end

By the way,the extra fan he wanted was for the IC not to keep the radiator cool, its for the top mount IC and its not a good thing to have engine coolant too cold.

:cheers!:
 
Maybe look into water injection too, if your kean and really want to cool the charge air.
 
Bloody engineering students!

Thing is, there is no escape for the pressure, only the engine. So it becomes a closed off, pressurized system. So there will be no pressure loss. Conservation of mass. When the turbo is spooling, the air has to go somewhere. So there will be no pressure loss.


You've got it totally wrong.....look at the theory and then in practice check the pressure drop..have you ever done this ?
 
A little bit of info

Pressure Drop
Another aspect of intercoolers to be considered is pressure drop. The pressure read by a boost gauge is the pressure in the intake manifold. It is not the same as the pressure that the turbocharger itself puts out. To get a fluid, such as air, to flow there must be a difference in pressure from one end to the other. Consider a straw that is sitting on the table. It doesn't having anything moving through it until you pick it up, stick it in your mouth, and change the pressure at one end (either by blowing or sucking). In the same way the turbo outlet pressure is higher than the intake manifold pressure, and will always be higher than the intake pressure, because there must be a pressure difference for the air to move.

The difference in pressure required for a given amount of air to move from turbo to intake manifold is an indication of the hydraulic restriction of the intercooler, the up pipe, and the throttle body. Let's say you are trying to move 255 gram/sec of air through a stock intercooler, up pipe, and throttle body and there is a 4 psi difference that is pushing it along (I'm just making up numbers here). If your boost gauge reads 15 psi, that means the turbo is actually putting up 19 psi. Now you buy a PT-70 and slap on some Champion heads. Now you are moving 450 gm/sec of air. At 15 psi boost in the intake manifold the turbo now has to put up 23 psi, because the pressure drop required to get the higher air flow is now 8 psi instead of the 4 that we had before. More flow with the same equipment means higher pressure drop. So we put on a new front mount intercooler. It has a lower pressure drop, pressure drop is now 4 psi, so the turbo is putting up 19 psi again. Now we add the 65 mm throttle body and the pressure drop is now 3 psi. Then we add the 2.5" up pipe, and it drops to 2.5 psi. Now to make 15 psi boost the turbo only has to put up 17.5 psi. The difference in turbo outlet temperature between 23 psi and 17.5 psi is about 40 deg (assuming a constant efficiency)! So you can see how just by reducing the pressure drop we can lower the temperatures while still running the same amount of boost.

I have seen some misunderstandings regarding intercooler pressure drop and how it relates to heat transfer. For example, one vendor's catalog implies that if you had little or no pressure drop then you would have no heat transfer. This is incorrect. Pressure drop and heat transfer are relatively independent, you can have good heat transfer in an intercooler that has a small pressure drop if it is designed correctly. It is easier to have good heat transfer when there is a larger pressure drop because the fluid's turbulence helps the heat transfer coefficient (U), but I have seen industrial coolers that are designed to have less than 0.2 psi of drop while flowing a heck of a lot more air, so it is certainly feasible.

Pressure drop is important because the higher the turbo discharge pressure is the higher the temperature of the turbo air. When we drop the turbo discharge pressure we also drop the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo. When we do that we also drop the intercooler outlet temperature, although not as much, but hey, every little bit helps. This lower pressure drop is part of the benefit offered by new, bigger front mount intercoolers; by the Duttweiler neck modification to stock location intercoolers; by bigger up pipes; and by bigger throttle bodies. You can also make the turbo work less hard by improving the inlet side to it. K&N air filters, free flowing MAF pipes, removing a screen from the MAF, removing the MAF itself when switching to an aftermarket fuel injection system, the upcoming 3" and 3.5" MAFs from Modern Muscle, these all reduce the pressure drop in the turbo inlet system which makes the compressor work less to produce the same boost which will reduce the turbo discharge temperature (among other, and probably greater, benefits).
What about my Intercooler?
Wondering if your intercooler is up to snuff? The big test: measure your intercooler outlet temperature! When I did this I got a K type thermocouple, the thin wire kind, slid it under the throttle body/up pipe hose and down into the center of the up pipe, and went for a drive. On an 80 to 85 deg day I got a WOT temperature of 140 deg, for a 55 to 60 deg approach. That tells me that I need more intercooler. If I can get the temperature down to 100 deg, the air density in the intake manifold goes up by 7%, so I should flow 7% more air and presumably make 7% more hp. On a 350 hp engine that is 25 hp increase. On a 450 hp engine that's a 30 hp increase. Damn, where's my check book…

Another check is pressure drop. Best way to check it is to find a pressure differential gauge, which has 2 lines instead of the single line a normal pressure gauge has. It checks the difference between the 2 spots it is hooked up to, as opposed to checking the difference in pressure between the spot it is hooked up to and atmospheric pressure, which is how a normal pressure gauge works.

Hook one line of the gauge to the turbo outlet and one to (preferably) the intercooler outlet. The turbo outlet/intercooler inlet pressure is easy, just tee into the wastegate supply line off the compressor housing. It would be nice to get the intercooler outlet pressure directly, but there's no convenient spot to hook up to. Hooking into the intake manifold (such as via the line to the boost gauge) is quite convenient, but gives the total pressure drop: intercooler + up pipe + throttle body. That'll give you a pretty good idea though.

Instead of the differential pressure gauge you could use 2 boost gauges, one in each spot, but then you have to worry about whether both gauges are calibrated the same, try to read both at the same time while driving fast, etc AND you may spring (ie, ruin) the gauge on the turbo outlet since when you close the throttle you get a big pressure spike that your normal boost gauge never sees.

If you find more than 4 or 5 psi difference between the intercooler inlet and intake manifold (and I'm just giving an educated guess here, you'd probably want to refer to one of the intercooler manufacturers for a better number) then I would suspect that a larger, lower pressure drop intercooler would offer you some gains.
Comparing competing Intercooler Designs
How to compare competing intercooler designs: Well, ultimately you want the one that will give you the coldest air possible into the intake manifold. This will be the one with highest UA value. When you multiply the heat transfer coefficient by the area (U x A) you get the UA value. This value doesn't really change much with reasonable changes in flow rates or temperatures, so if you could get the data to evaluate the UA for an intercooler in one car then you can use that to extrapolate how it would work in another car.

To evaluate the UA you need enough info to calculate the heat transferred (Q) and the DTlm. Then UA = Q/DTlm. Sounds easy, right? It would be, if the data was available. To properly evaluate an intercooler you would need: the turbo air flow through the intercooler; the pressure and temperature of the air from the turbo; the intercooler outlet temperature and pressure; the outside air temperature; and either the mix temperature of the cooling air as it leaves the intercooler or the flow rate of that air. That's a lot of info, and I'm not going to pretend that a vendor would make all that available to you, or that they would even collect all that data. I'm sure that the majority of the vendors selling bigger intercoolers have a trial and error process that they use to design their offerings rather than putting forth a real engineering effort anyway. But, if they did and they would release the info I would then use that data to figure out the amount of heat transferred (Q) and the DTlm, and then calculate the UA value for the intercooler. I would compare various intercooler's UA values and choose the one with the highest UA since that will give you the highest Q (most heat transferred) and the best DTlm (closest approach).
 
I think a FMIC with a fan that is attached to the accessories switch would be the way to go.
That way when you are waiting for the turbo to cool after a drive it is still getting coldish air.
I was also a fan of Bryce's Water to Air and found this kit which I am planning to put on mine.
Also Rusty, I found this "Pre-Intercooler" pipe the other day.
Not to sure how well it would work but looks alright.

-Brodie
 
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^ Not a bad idea, its like a heatsink.

Dunno how well it would work, be interesting to see though.
 

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