Discussion - "illegal" modifications to vehicles

[ants_oz]

For discussion....

I am interested in people's thoughts on "illegal" modifications to vehicles.

By that, I mean modifications which either are outright illegal (deem the vehicle unroadworthy), are for "off road use only", or require engineering approval but for which the owner of the vehicle has never sought engineering approval (therefore the vehicle is technically unroadworthy).

And I am talking about road registered vehicles only.

Now, my thoughts on this subject are crystal clear. If it's not legit, it has no place on the same roads that I drive on. The law is the same for everyone, and I see no reason why my life, the lives of my family members, and the lives of my friends and loved ones should possibly be endangered because someone chooses to modify their vehicle in such a way that it possibly becomes a danger to others.

But in the 4wd community, it appears to becoming more common for people to modify their vehicles in such a way that they are knowingly making them unroadworthy (in one form or another) but choose to do so anyway.

So I'm interested in your thoughts on the subject. I'm not asking anyone to incriminate themselves or anything like that, just a general discussion (and wonder) why some people think the rules don't apply to them.

Now, I know that a perfectly standard vehicle can be DRIVEN in such a way as to cause a danger to others - however I would like to keep driver behaviour out of this discussion entirely. I've heard plenty of people try to defend their illegal/unroadworthy mods with statements such as "But I'm a great driver so it's okay". Whatever... Driver behaviour is another discussion entirely.

I'll be very interested to see the outcome of this thread.

Edit - whether or not "the rules" are sensible is irrelevant - the law is the law, and if someone doesn't agree with a law, they have the right in a democracy to lobby for it to be changed - they do not, however, have the right to flagrantly break the law and expect to not be held to account for such actions. This thread is about why 4wd'ers are, in increasing numbers, breaking the law with vehicle mods that go too far.

 

[Krankin]

In short,


if it aint "Roadworthy with or without mods", "Road Registered" and "3rd party Insured" get it off the public roads.

Same rules for everyone, period!

 

[Jason]

I totally agree with your thoughts Anthony.

I also wonder why we do not have National laws instead of State laws regarding this. For example, something can be done in Vic but not in Qld. The vehicle can be driven from state to state, and has been proved, that it can be booked in the non-compliant state for being unroadworthy.

Edit: Let's all keep this discussion civil and adult. Post's that do not comply will be deleted.

 

[Matt76]

My tyres are 20mm bigger than legal in Qld, yet legal in other states. Am I endangering the pubilc? I don't believe so. As Jason said, we need national laws.

My supposed legal 2 inch lift brought my truck up 75mm. Its sold as a legal kit, yet really isn't.

Where do we draw the line?

My truck handles, goes and stops better than many 'legal' cars I have owned and driven.

 

[Matt76]

Hahaha........

 

[Krankin]

The line is drawn, no if's or buts.

There is many things sold in shops, BUT

Will it pass for registration?

 

[Old.Tony]

This is the very reason why I created this thread.

If you have an accident, even if it is NOT your fault, and your vehicle is taken for inspection and found unroadworthy, YOU PERSONALLY become responsible for the costs incurred. If that's just a tow and a $50 indicator lens, you're lucky. If it's the ambulance, hospital + doctors bills plus lifetime compensation for the poor sod that became a paraplegic - remember, even if it was their fault, you pay - that's a LOT of money.

And your insurance company can - and will - pull the plug when big $ are involved and you knowingly circumvent or outright break the law with something you've bolted on.

My thread was more a warning that uncertified modifications can cost YOU money, but there is the other side to the coin, as always, which is this thread here.

Personally, I don't like uncertified modifications, I wholeheartedly disapprove of them, and wish that anyone that modifies their vehicle either does it within the boundaries of the laws (keeping it safe and assuring their own financial safety as well) or they keep it off the road altogether.

 

[joshy]

The laws are a load of crap. Even when it comes to getting something engineered sometimes its impossible cos theres a blanket ban on it, but what if youve upgraded everything else to suit?

Alot of the kits sold in 4wd shops should be engineer certified when sold. Dont forget most mods done to a 4wd make it stronger then it would have been from factory.

Like theres no need for extended shackles to be illegal. if youve used twice the amount of material in the shackles how are they going to be weaker and more dangerous.

 

[joshy]

and if u want to keep more of em off the road, wheres the offroad only rego, or state forest rego, or conditional rego.

Personaly id rather be in a fully exo'd 4wd in any sort of accident then anything without, but exos and most internals are illegal

 

[Matt76]

We went through all the same crap rules when I was riding motorbikes. We could run full race tyres on the road which are totally unpredictable when cold and very hard to keep up to temp, yet we get big fines for removing the tiny plastic rear fender. Apparantly no fender is dangerous....

I agree that rules are rules and if we break them we must deal with the consequenses if they arise. No one however will ever convince me that I am a danger on the road because of the mods I choose to do.

 

[Old.Tony]

The law is a sore point, but it's there (usually) for the greater masses who generally only know where the metal hose thingy at the service station goes in and which pedal makes it go faster.

The technically competent and the skilled adventurers are an exception to society's norm. The rules are made for Fred Normal, and with that in mind, they must be somewhat inhibiting and restrictive, otherwise Fred Normal will become like a kid with a flamethrower in a fireworks factory.

That, ultimately, also saves the more skilled people, because Fred Normal doesn't go doing as many stupid things and doesn't do those stupid things in places where Joe Adventurer might want to be.

There are good and bad sides to the law. Those restricted by them will complain. Those impacted by Fred Normals pushing the limit and doing stupid stuff will complain. The government will find a medium and legislate on the side of safety for the Fred Normals, and the only thing we can do is lobby to try and either have the restriction moved a little further out, or allow a loophole where, with certification, Joe Adventurer gets to have his cake, play with it, lift it, flex it and in the end, sit by a campfire where Fred can only dream of being, and eat it.

Just on lift kits: my Jaguar was an exceptional road handler, because vertically, the centre of gravity was just below the axle line. That means, in order for the car to lift its wheels, an extraordinary amount of force was required - and the tyres always let go first. With 4WDs, the vertical centre of gravity is higher already, and even the manual acknowledges the possibility of rolling the vehicle.

Now, stick Fred Normal with a 2" lift kit and larger tyres to achieve that 3" (75mm) lift spoken about. Fred takes his car around a corner and, being a total dork, rolls it.

That's what the law is trying to stop. Not the people who know what they're doing, or understand the physics, or have the skills to handle and control their vehicle - it's to stop the less-skilled (meaning most of the population) from hurting themselves and, possibly, others who manage to get in their way.

I can't disagree, because I've seen too many idiots in my time, doing too many stupid things that they just don't have a hope of handling well.

 

[Krankin]

No one however will ever convince me that I am a danger on the road because of the mods I choose to do.

OK,
you,ve raised your vehicle by 75 mm,

thereby raising the centre of gravity which infact makes your vehicle easier to tip over than from standard, FACT,

therefore making you and your vehicle more dangerous to you and other road users.

Does this mod serve any purpose for road use ..NO..



I'm not opposed to mods as such,
but keeping inline with the topic.

 

[Krankin]

Dont forget most mods done to a 4wd make it stronger then it would have been from factory.

.

Which ones?

 

[Leprechaun]

Strength doesn't necessarily equal safe...........

 

[SOLID D22]

This topic really is a can of worms, i can say sooo much but i wont bother as it will be just going round in circles.
But i will say this, engine mods to make a car go faster in particular older cars, you need big carbs big cams lots of fuel and preferably a big engine, all illegal to do but drive a production line ford toyota or holden today and its almost making the same power as a hotted up old engine but the new car is not illegal.
With 4wd's its very hard to comment, as soon as i traded in my commodore for my str my driving style was totally different, it had to be, i suppose thats where the average joe comment comes into place about someone not paying attention on how to drive a 4b properly, but in saying that to roll a 4b on the road is a hard task to do.

 

[Krankin]

Well,

Old Tony sums it up in his 5:57 pm post.

I dont see it as a can of worms , but cut and dry,

argue as much as one likes

its either road legal or its not!

 

[Matt76]

Does this mod serve any purpose for road use ..

It allows me a better view of breasts and miniskirts in the next car.......

For that reason alone it it should be allowed

 

[maddogrc]

With 4wd's its very hard to comment, as soon as i traded in my commodore for my str my driving style was totally different, it had to be, i suppose thats where the average joe comment comes into place about someone not paying attention on how to drive a 4b properly, but in saying that to roll a 4b on the road is a hard task to do.

thats a big big point i reckon, the fact is that going from a sedan like a ford falcon to a much higher and bigger navara, patrol, landcruier, etc means you must adjust your driving style to suit the vehicle. you cant expect a high sitting car with high ground clearance and a high centre of gravity to be able to do the same high speed turns and manoeuvring such as a street sedan.

so many people just dont realise that after adding a lift kit or using suspension lifts means you have to somewhat relearn to drive the car because now the car is more likely to tip then it was before, but the benefit is that it will go better offroad.

this is just too big a can of worms...

 

[Krankin]

Matt76,
For that reason my friend,
i can allow exemptions!



Lucky there's not a clause in insurance policies for perving as it probably causes more stacks than any mods.

 

[SOLID D22]

Well,


argue as much as one likes

its either road legal or its not!

Problem is are we talking about illegal issues that are illegal because it has not been engineered or home patch bodgy jobs that really are unsafe and illegal?

Because if its a good job and been done by a professional, lets say you make a bullbar and your a welder, its still illegal because it has not been engineered but it may be better built than a arb equivelant.

So then where do you stand?