D22 QD32 shaking when first starting in 1st gear and on inclines

[mr.beatts]

I have a 1997 D22 with a QD32 motor. It's a central american model, but I don't believe it's any different than the asian/african/australian models.
When I first start moving in first gear my truck shakes/vibrates a little more than I think it should. This is especially noticeable at low speeds on steep inclines. The steeper the worse. However, this is only at low speeds. Once I pass between 10-15 km/h, depending on the steepness, the truck runs smooth again. The same happens in 4x4 as well. If I reverse up the same hill the symptoms do not appear. (That might be obvious to many of you, but I thot I'd mention it as I am not a mechanic by any means.)
What I want to know is if this is just normal behaviour. All the mechanics down here say it is normal, but I don't have much confidence in the Honduran mechanics, sorry. I've spoken to other owners of this model and some say they experience the same issue. If however, it is normal, I'll just deal with it.
So far, I have changed the clutch disc and pressure plate and machined the flywheel. I changed the transmission and engine supports. I changed the central driveshaft bearing. Note that all of these were aftermarket parts, apparently the best ones you can get locally, all made in Japan(according to the box anyways).
I've now been told by a very knowledgeable mechanic here in Honduras that the problem is that the pressure plate is an aftermarket. He said this motor/transmission will only work with an original Nissan part.
So, I'd love to hear your comments on other suggestions as to what the problem might be OR if this is just normal for this model OR if the aftermarked 'Exedy' pressure plate is the culprit. I've also been told that it might be an issue with the rear differential needing some sort of adjustment.

Thanks,

Andrew

 

[logz10]

I had the same problem after upgrading to a H/D clutch.
Turned out I had a stress fracture in the fork which couldn't handle that little extra from the tighter pressure plate.

I have been told this is rare but worth a look

 

[Old.Tony]

First of all, welcome to the forum.

There are several very small points not quite clear that may help here.

1) When you are moving forward at 15km/h and the vibration has ceased, is your foot still depressing the clutch or has it completely released it?

2) If you fully release the clutch with the engine idling (do it slowly) is there any vibration once the clutch has been fully released?

Note: "fully released" means your foot is not touching the pedal even in the slightest.

3) Where is the friction point? Is it down near the floor with the pedal depressed most of the way, or is it about halfway up the pedal's travel?

4) In first gear with the vehicle rolling along a dry sealed road and the clutch pedal fully released, what happens if you stomp on the accelerator? Do you get a sudden rise of RPM above what you would expect, like the clutch is slipping?

5) Have you dismantled the flywheel?

For questions 1) and 2) these would indicate a damaged/worn thrust bearing or arm, as per the previous poster. With one of the arms not depressing properly on the pressure plate, it will unevenly release the clutch, so at some point the clutch will slip and the pressure plate will grab it, setting up a bounce which will feel like a vibration.

For question 3) this would indicate that the clutch needs adjusting.

For question 4) this would indicate that the clutch is slipping and under high load it's not able to grab properly - either through insufficient pressure or through some contaminant on the flywheel surface. Insufficient pressure could be either a pressure plate that isn't strong enough, or a thrust bearing that's riding on the pressure plate too hard.

For question 5), many of these Navaras have dual mass flywheels. These operate a sliding pressure plate/clutch face which takes up the vibration of the engine's thrust and provides a smoother delivery of power through to the gearbox. The problem is, if the springs inside the flywheel are missing, deformed, broken or otherwise not in their original state, the flywheel will not operate smoothly at all and this could easily be felt as a vibration as the plate bounces forward and backward.

Hope some of that helps.

 

[Dion]

My QD32 does the same thing. Doesn't really bother me so I haven't looked into fixing it.

 

[mr.beatts]

Thanks very much gentlemen for your comments. And Tony, thanks for the welcome. After reading the board a bit this morning, my time zone, I figured I would hear back from you, Dion.
Some of the things you wrote were a little above my level Tony. But, I'm going to do my best to get back to you very soon with the best answers I can give.

Thanks again,

Andrew

 

[Dave]

My mates does the same thing.

If they had engine mounts like the TB48DE you would barely notice it.

No balance shafts doesn't help either.

Its what you get with a old school diesel me thinks.

 

[mr.beatts]

Old Tony:

I've answered all the questions to the best of my ability. Please find my answers between your questions.

I look forward to hearing what you suspect most after reading my responses.

First of all, welcome to the forum.

There are several very small points not quite clear that may help here.

1) When you are moving forward at 15km/h and the vibration has ceased, is your foot still depressing the clutch or has it completely released it?

Completely released.

2) If you fully release the clutch with the engine idling (do it slowly) is there any vibration once the clutch has been fully released?

No vibration once released. Smooth. I don't know if it matters, but there's also no vibration while slowly releasing the clutch as you described.
A question about the thrust bearing, or fork as it was also called. Does it play any role once the clutch is fully released? Or is its purpose just to release pressure from the plate while shifting gearing.
I ask because I only have the problem when the clutch pedal is fully released, not while it being released.

Note: "fully released" means your foot is not touching the pedal even in the slightest.

3) Where is the friction point? Is it down near the floor with the pedal depressed most of the way, or is it about halfway up the pedal's travel?

About halfway up. (Note: I've installed a new clutch pump and the pedal appears to be even with the accelerator.) Before, I changed the pump, the pedal was very low to the floor. But, even then the vibration was the same.

4) In first gear with the vehicle rolling along a dry sealed road and the clutch pedal fully released, what happens if you stomp on the accelerator? Do you get a sudden rise of RPM above what you would expect, like the clutch is slipping?

Absolutely not. It responds immediately. Even going up a hill shifting from first to second, if I slam it and pop the clutch the car grabs and lurches forward.
As far as contaminant, I doubt it. I was there when we machined the flywheel and saw it installed. There was no contaminant. Also, the problem is pretty much the same before and after the transmission work we did.
Also, the vehicle never feels like it's slipping really. The vehicle seems to maintain its speed. It just vibrates in my opinion. But, I want to hear any and all suggestions.

5) Have you dismantled the flywheel?

I'll answer this question best I can. I removed the flywheel to have it machined. But, the flywheel, from what I remember was literally just a solid piece of metal about 2” thick. It only had holes for the bolts. I don't remember anything that even indicated a possibility of disassembly. Thus, I doubt that my model has a dual mass flywheel. I saw no sign of springs. The clutch disc itself does have a few springs on it, but that might be normal of all discs.

For questions 1) and 2) these would indicate a damaged/worn thrust bearing or arm, as per the previous poster. With one of the arms not depressing properly on the pressure plate, it will unevenly release the clutch, so at some point the clutch will slip and the pressure plate will grab it, setting up a bounce which will feel like a vibration.

For question 3) this would indicate that the clutch needs adjusting.

For question 4) this would indicate that the clutch is slipping and under high load it's not able to grab properly - either through insufficient pressure or through some contaminant on the flywheel surface. Insufficient pressure could be either a pressure plate that isn't strong enough, or a thrust bearing that's riding on the pressure plate too hard.

For question 5), many of these Navaras have dual mass flywheels. These operate a sliding pressure plate/clutch face which takes up the vibration of the engine's thrust and provides a smoother delivery of power through to the gearbox. The problem is, if the springs inside the flywheel are missing, deformed, broken or otherwise not in their original state, the flywheel will not operate smoothly at all and this could easily be felt as a vibration as the plate bounces forward and backward.

I hope that some of my answers help. Thanks for your time.

Andrew

 

[mr.beatts]

Logz10,

Thanks for your response. Much appreciated. Just to be clear. Did changing your fork, or thrust bearing as Old Tony calls it, correct the issue?
Was your shaking also experienced after the clutch was fully released, or was it while u were releasing the clutch? Do you have my exact model of truck? A 1997 D22? Mine is not officially called a Navara, just a D22.
I just want to know how similar your situation is to mine.

Thanks very much.

Andrew

 

[mr.beatts]

Dion and Dave,

I want to thank you for your input as well. It's true, that just might be how my model of truck is made. Like I said, other past owners I've met have said they had the same issue, so it might be as simple as that as well. I'll have to keep my eyes open for other owners and see if I can ask to test drive their trucks and see what I learn from that.

thanks,

Andrew

 

[Old.Tony]

Okay, so let's get one more question out of the way.

If you apply a liberal amount of accelerator and let the clutch out quickly to get moving, is that when you get the vibration?

That would sound like the clutch bouncing off the pressure plate, almost as if the pressure plate's springs aren't quite up to the task.

That could occur if the pressure plate had seen too much heat (deformation of the spring rate which could happen over time with mildly excessive heat, or rapidly with extremely excessive heat), or if the clutch is too worn, or if too much of the flywheel has been machined away.

When you machined the flywheel, was any part of it blued, or otherwise showing obvious signs of excessive heat? It might not have been something you were looking for, so you may not have noticed, particularly on the pressure plate where discolouration of the inner spring fingers is a sure sign that there's been some heat-related change to the metal.

If the flywheel's an obviously solid chunk of metal, it isn't a dual mass, although the springs are internal, there are visible joins and bolts, because dual mass flywheels can be disassembled.

Could it be the thrust bearing or the lifting fork? If it's maintaining too much pressure on the pressure plate, yes it could. If it's bent or cracked, it's not likely to apply as much pressure, but it will apply pressure unevenly.

 

[mr.beatts]

Thanks Tony. I gotta go for the day (12 hour time difference), but I'll get back to you soon. I appreciate your interest. I think I have the answer to most of ur questions, but need to think about some of them a bit more. I'll test out the quick release of the clutch today with acceleration.

thanks,

Andrew

 

[mr.beatts]

Hi Tony,

Please see my answers below in between your answers/comments. I hope my comments are something like what you were expecting. Thanks again for any and all help you have given/may yet give.

Tony - If you apply a liberal amount of accelerator and let the clutch out quickly to get moving, is that when you get the vibration?

That would sound like the clutch bouncing off the pressure plate, almost as if the pressure plate's springs aren't quite up to the task.

Answer - I did as you suggested Tony. And no, that did not cause the vibration. I mean, the car jerked a bit, of course, as the tires chirped and grabbed. The vibration, which I tested many times today, occurs after the clutch has been engaged, not as it is being engaged. That is, in my novice opinion.
As much as I don't want to believe it, your suggestion of the pressure plate is making more sense to me. I'll give you an example of why I feel that way. Just yesterday they opened up a new paved road in my town. It rises about 100'/30 m at an angle of between 45-55 degrees. I took it to test out the truck. I made it up no issue at about 20 km/h, but the truck was vibrating the whole way up and there was a noticeable smell of burnt/used clutch at the top of the hill.

Tony - That could occur if the pressure plate had seen too much heat (deformation of the spring rate which could happen over time with mildly excessive heat, or rapidly with extremely excessive heat), or if the clutch is too worn, or if too much of the flywheel has been machined away.

Answer – My particular pressure plate hasn't seen too much heat. This issue has existed with the pressure plate that came with the truck and continued as soon as I put in the aftermarket one I bought. Actually, the whole problem got worse after I put in the new clutch and pressure plate and machined the flywheel. Which makes sense as there was more power being delivered to the transmission.
The same comments apply to the clutch.
The mechanic was confident that this flywheel had never been machined before and we removed only the slightest amount, a fine powder really.

Tony - When you machined the flywheel, was any part of it blued, or otherwise showing obvious signs of excessive heat? It might not have been something you were looking for, so you may not have noticed, particularly on the pressure plate where discolouration of the inner spring fingers is a sure sign that there's been some heat-related change to the metal.

Answer – Tony, I did notice a few small spots on the wheel which I did ask about. The people machining it and the backyard mechanic changing my clutch kit said it was nothing. I would say it made up less than 10% of the surface of the wheel and was in a few different spots.

Tony - Could it be the thrust bearing or the lifting fork? If it's maintaining too much pressure on the pressure plate, yes it could. If it's bent or cracked, it's not likely to apply as much pressure, but it will apply pressure unevenly.

Question – Tony, when you say above “ it's not likely to apply as much pressure, but it will apply pressure unevenly” are you referring to the bearing/fork combo or the pressure plate. If by 'it' you mean the plate, I follow you.
If by 'it' you mean the bearing/fork combo I'm a little lost. Again, if by 'it' you mean the bearing/fork combo are you saying that the thrust bearing or the lifting fork actually applies pressure on the plate and clutch? I'm just trying to make sure I understand. If I understand correctly, the role of the thrust bearing and the lifting fork is to release the pressure the plate exerts on the clutch so that shifting is available. But, when the clutch pedal is released, the thrust bearing and the lifting fork back off and don't affect the pressure of the plate on the clutch.
I hope I'm explaining my question well. I think ur trying to say if my bearing or fork is bent, the plate may not apply as much pressure on the disc. Please confirm.

Thanks again Tony

sincerely,

Andrew

 

[Old.Tony]

Let's use a picture. The terms are a little different, I'll use the terms from the picture to be sure we're talking about the same thing:

The "throwout lever" (lifting fork) could be twisted or bent, or may (like the old Volkswagen ones that I am very familiar with) be two separate arms, and one may be at a different angle to the other.

The "throwout bearing" (thrust bearing) is what pushes against the pressure plate. If it's sitting too tightly against the pressure plate, or sitting at an angle, it may cause the pressure plate to apply a force on the clutch that is uneven. This will cause slippage of the clutch even when the pedal is fully released.

That's almost what it sounds like is happening here.

You noticed a discolouration of 10% of the surface - there shouldn't have been any at all, as far as I'm aware. Flywheels aren't supposed to get hot enough to discolour themselves - unless the clutch is slipping too much (generally through riding the clutch, eg by holding the vehicle still on a hill, or through misalignment/misadjustment/failure).

That you're smelling the clutch after a fully-engaged travel is a significant concern. It simply should not have any movement once the clutch pedal is fully released, therefore should not heat up or smell.

This makes me wonder ... could the clutch be slipping ALL the time? Is your pedal adjusted properly? The QD32's pedal should be between 236 and 246mm from the floor.

I think there's a good chance this one should be seen by a clutch specialist, because apart from that pedal adjustment, I can only think that the spring rate in the pressure plate is not wrong, or the throwout lever is not aligned properly.

 

[mr.beatts]

Thanks Tony. The picture did help. You're very knowledgeable as well as generous with your time. I appreciated everything you've done. Now I need to work on finding a mechanic who really knows what he's talking about. I think I've been directed toward a good one who I'll go see in the next few days. I'll keep you posted on the results.

sincerely,

Andrew

 

[mr.beatts]

Problem fixed. And you're not going to believe me when I tell you how simple it was.
Shaking - it was simply a matter of making sure the pins of the universal joints on the two driveshafts are on the same angle. I hope I'm explaining myself correctly. I spent a whole week working with 3 mechanics and came up dry. Then by dumb luck, I found when I put the driveshaft back in the truck it was suddenly shaking much less. I mentioned this to a clearly more knowledgeable mechanic. He told me that we just had to align the pins. That's it.

Clutch burning - my lower clutch pump had a piece of reed bar serving as the pin instead of a precisely measured part. It was nearly an inch longer than the correct one. Thus constantly applying pressure on the lifting fork and decreasing the pressure the plate could apply on the clutch disc. Thus the slipping under stress.

That's it folks. I can now go quickly or slowly up whatever hill I went and the truck is as smooth as whatever road I am on and the clutch is not slipping at all.

 

[Old.Tony]

Glad to hear it's fixed. I don't think I would have thought of those ... how did the reed bar get in there?

 

[mr.beatts]

In a 15 year old truck Tony, we'll surely never know how or when the reed bar got jammed in there. I'm just glad it was found. Thanks for all your time, interest and help. Much appreciated.

so long mate,

Andrew

 

[CESARQD32]

mr.beatts soy de Panama, tengo el mismo problema con mi d22 qd32 en primera salgo y tiembla hasta que coje velocidad, yo le habia cambiado hace un año el kit de disco plato y balinera de fabrica, puede decirme cual era el problema y como lo soluciono, le agradeceria.

Saludos...

 

[Dion]

Problem fixed. And you're not going to believe me when I tell you how simple it was.
Shaking - it was simply a matter of making sure the pins of the universal joints on the two driveshafts are on the same angle. I hope I'm explaining myself correctly. I spent a whole week working with 3 mechanics and came up dry. Then by dumb luck, I found when I put the driveshaft back in the truck it was suddenly shaking much less. I mentioned this to a clearly more knowledgeable mechanic. He told me that we just had to align the pins. That's it.

Time to do that to my car I think. I just replaced all the engine/trans mounts and it's very noticeable now.

 

[Griffta]

Bit of a vibration...

Hi Guys, I've recently bought my first S22. I'm getting a bit of vibration upon picking up the bite point in tickover (it disappears once I accelerate) and when I drop from third to second when approaching a roundabout or junction.
Any thoughts/advice for me please. Cheers, Griffta.