Recovery points - are these safe?

[Vigilante]

So I have just installed an Xrox bar on my D40 (http://www.navara.asia/showthread.php?t=23007) and noticed they have two reinforced holes on the front of the bar to fit up eye-bolts.

I am looking to use these holes to install recovery points from. I understand that using normal eyes bolts are not really the way to go due to the uncertainty of load distribution on angles - as we all know, recovery in the bush is never 'straight' forward...

Anyway I have found these - http://www.theriggingshed.com.au/shop/product/lugs_swivel_lifting_vlbg_-_rud/1745

I am thinking of going for 2 x VLBG 5.0t M30. If I am reading the specifications correctly (and I am happy to be corrected!) then at 60 degrees I should still be able to achieve a load rating of 8.6t with 2 of these jiggers.

Do you think they would be safe to snatch from? Considering my snatch straps are rated to 8t then I think these should be sufficient. I would even consider going up to 2 x VLBG 7.0t M36 to further decrease uncertainty....

Let me know what you reckon

 

[Old.Tony]

Depends on the strength of the bar from the mount hole up to the chassis. You're snatching 2T+ putting transient loads of considerably more onto that, and the structure of the bar has to deal with that - the chassis can, you need to be confident that the bar itself can.

If you're happy with that, use an equalisation strap to spread the load and make yourself even more comfortable with it.

Those load rings are designed for static loads (a lifting load, although you are LIFTING it, is a static load through the members holding the load, unlike a snatch which has a varying load throughout the operation). Still, using the 5T lugs will help and using two together gives you (at 60 degrees) a load rating of 8.6T - so you'd have to feel some confidence in their ability. Especially since most of us use bow shackles rated at 4.7T - you should feel easy using those points as long as the bar can do it.

 

[tyron]

I have the same bar, I put recovery hooks where those holds are, they do stick out a bit though.

 

[steve1961]

I had thought about doing a similar thing on an ARB bar , drilling and mounting 2 eye bolts slightly outboard of the winch mount . however with the Constantina ADR bullbar mounts , iam not sure these would cope with snatching , and nobody will supply information on them , are the xrox bars ARD approved ? and mounted on crush plates ? if so , what are your concerns regarding this ?

 

[Vigilante]

Well the bar is compatible with winches up to 12,000lbs (5.4t) so I would be pretty happy snatching from it... You would think that if it could handle the stress put on it from winching (same goes for ARB bars) then snatching shouldn't be a real issue...

 

[tyron]

I had thought about doing a similar thing on an ARB bar , drilling and mounting 2 eye bolts slightly outboard of the winch mount . however with the Constantina ADR bullbar mounts , iam not sure these would cope with snatching , and nobody will supply information on them , are the xrox bars ARD approved ? and mounted on crush plates ? if so , what are your concerns regarding this ?

They are adr approved, not sure about crush plates.

 

[nathand22]

There is a thread around here somewhere showing a set of recovery points ripped clean out of the chassis and that was with the load being spread out over a longer area and using 2 bolts to secure it.
So my worry would not be the actual eyelet it self, it would be both how and where it is bolted, then using a snatch which could load up that point with up to three times the weight of the vehicle is not something i think the bar or steel it is made out of was designed for.
Bit risky for me, i would not want to be anywhere near it when it was being done either, not in the car or the tow car and not anywhere in site.

 

[steve1961]

They are adr approved, not sure about crush plates.

Well the concertina plates iam thinking would pull out ( stretch ) under a heavy snatch , opposed to a slow recovery from a winch , i know my old Triton bull bar would have been fine , as it was solid mounted to the chassis , i would be very warey of snatching off concertina plate mounted bullbars

 

[Vigilante]

The mounting brackets on the Xrox bars are designed with crumple zones in them. One would assume they are designed to compress rather than extend though... I can't imagine they would straighten out during a snatch... I might be wrong though...?

 

[steve1961]

There is a thread around here somewhere showing a set of recovery points ripped clean out of the chassis and that was with the load being spread out over a longer area and using 2 bolts to secure it.
So my worry would not be the actual eyelet it self, it would be both how and where it is bolted, then using a snatch which could load up that point with up to three times the weight of the vehicle is not something i think the bar or steel it is made out of was designed for.
Bit risky for me, i would not want to be anywhere near it when it was being done either, not in the car or the tow car and not anywhere in site.

You can get rated eyebolts , and if mounted besides a winch mount with a backing plate , i don't see an issue , as long as the bullbar was solid mounted

 

[tyron]

I've snatched off mine pretty hard. Pretty sure they just B ok t to the chassis.

 

[Vigilante]

There is a thread around here somewhere showing a set of recovery points ripped clean out of the chassis and that was with the load being spread out over a longer area and using 2 bolts to secure it.
So my worry would not be the actual eyelet it self, it would be both how and where it is bolted, then using a snatch which could load up that point with up to three times the weight of the vehicle is not something i think the bar or steel it is made out of was designed for.
Bit risky for me, i would not want to be anywhere near it when it was being done either, not in the car or the tow car and not anywhere in site.

Then it would seem you just can't win... what's the point of going with one type over another? I guess you are going to be stuffed either way...

 

[steve1961]

The mounting brackets on the Xrox bars are designed with crumple zones in them. One would assume they are designed to compress rather than extend though... I can't imagine they would straighten out during a snatch... I might be wrong though...?

I would guess , they would stretch just at the same rate they would compress

 

[nathand22]

Well the bar is compatible with winches up to 12,000lbs (5.4t) so I would be pretty happy snatching from it... You would think that if it could handle the stress put on it from winching (same goes for ARB bars) then snatching shouldn't be a real issue...

winching from it and snatching from it are two TOTALLY different things.

The winch is bolted in using 4 bolts so the load is spread out over a large area.

The winch is normally bolted through a double plated section (well the ARB bars are)

Winching doesnt involve the SHOCK load that a snatch does, Especially when the recovery vehicle gets too excited.

 

[steve1961]

winching from it and snatching from it are two TOTALLY different things.

The winch is bolted in using 4 bolts so the load is spread out over a large area.

The winch is normally bolted through a double plated section (well the ARB bars are)

Winching doesnt involve the SHOCK load that a snatch does, Especially when the recovery vehicle gets too excited.

I agree , hence my comments

 

[nathand22]

Then it would seem you just can't win... what's the point of going with one type over another? I guess you are going to be stuffed either way...

I think that was from not using an equaliser strap and then being so badly stuck the driver of the recovery vehicle went crazy and just went too hard with a strap that was to big for the vehicle that was stuck.

Having said that i would still trust a recovery point that is bolted to the chassis wit two bolts then one attached to the bar with only one bolt.

 

[Vigilante]

The mounting position on the Xrox bar are reinforced with what looks like 4-5 mm steel so I am thinking they have been thought of to be used as recovery points... why else would they reinforce them?

I understand the concern about the "shock" of snatching as well... but in all honestly you shouldn't just be going hell for leather from the get go... start small and increase is the rule of the day for me there's gotta be a technique employed to minimise damage and recovery failure.

Also, the main theme running through the comments on recovery from most forums recognises that equalizer straps NEED to be used...

 

[steve1961]

I had another thought the other day after looking at mine , there's quite a bit of room around the chassis behind the bullbar mounts on both sides , i was thinking of getting someone to make up 2 " soft " mounts , ie snatch type small slings that would wrap around the chassis on each side behind the bullbar mount and have a pair of d shackles , and fit an equalizing sling

 

[Vigilante]

I had another thought the other day after looking at mine , there's quite a bit of room around the chassis behind the bullbar mounts on both sides , i was thinking of getting someone to make up 2 " soft " mounts , ie snatch type small slings that would wrap around the chassis on each side behind the bullbar mount and have a pair of d shackles , and fit an equalizing sling

This isn't a bad idea actually...

 

[Old.Tony]

^ it's the difference in loading. A static load - which is very close to what a winching load is - is much milder on the system than a snatch, the sudden loading of several extra tonnes plus momentum followed by its release generates much greater stresses.

We have to bear in mind that a bolt rated at 2T can handle 4T or more momentarily. It's part of the reason why we inspect our gear after using it - those 4.7T bow shackles can cop 8T or 9T in a big snatch. The shackle holds - but it won't forever, as it deforms under each heavy loading. It will eventually give way.

My concern with the bar isn't the point you're mounting on it, but the bar itself between that point and the mounting points of the bar on the chassis.

I'd consider (using an equalisation strap) and winching from those points in a heartbeat, but if the concertina is in the way, I'd probably not snatch from it.