Lift pump install

[tweak'e]

copied from Lift pump install - Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum

Updated results using the red:

With the motor off, the pump will pressurise to 6psi.
With the motor on, it will idle around 5psi.
Normal driving, it drops to 4-5psi.
Heavy load, it drops to 3psi (compared to 1Hg of vacuum with the Facet).

My butt dyno tells me that the red has flattened out the torque curve which was taking a nose dive from 1900rpm using the facet.

a usefull mod especialy with ZD30 motors. it also means you can run 2nd fuel filter with out causeing problems with the fuel pump.
that one is using a holey red pump tho a carter etc should be ok to. the 35gph facet couldn't keep up. anything over 90gph and under 15psi should do fine.

 

[Rabbid-chop]

My search skillz are abysmal and this was all i could find on the subject, but what are the advantages of a lift pump other than being able to run another filter? Better performance somehow? Easier priming??

I have a carter gold sitting in the shed that im not using. Would this be overkill? Some very crude mental calculation suggest the fuel requirement at full noise would'nt even be 50lph!

 

[bods]

All of the things you have mentioned above basically. Plus it takes the load off the lift pump that is run by the motor...

 

[Rabbid-chop]

Cheers bods. I might chuck one in for a laugh then.
Would one of these be ok? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fuel-pum...868020?hash=item27e19cb4b4:g:hN4AAOSwzhVWqpZu
Or one of these bad boys. I already have one of these from a different project. Seems like a bit of overkill and possibly noisy. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-GENU...351931?hash=item1ea9a7987b:g:WfkAAOSwv0tVRs6a

 

[bods]

If you've got one, chuck it in the fuel line just out of the tank, make a bracket with rubber mounts so it doesn't transfer any noise to the chassis and bob's your cross dressing aunty hahaha

 

[tweak'e]

i had a carter running for a while then it stopped making pressure.
apparently they have a habit of the internal regulator failing.

i think what happens is the pulses from the injection pump give the internal regulator a hard time causing them to fail.

currently running a carrotor which is around 35 gph (on a different 4wd) and i use a holly bypass regulator to keep the load off the internal regulator.

also need to run a one way valve in parallel to the lift pump as a bypass for when the pump isn't on or can't flow enough. the facet types and carotor etc can't keep up.
ideally you need a pump that has a 10mm connection.

don't forget you can use EFI pump like bosh 044 style. you must use a bypass regulator with it.

the other issue is filter and water.
one problem with the carter is the motor is immersed in fuel. but as its a low point it can get filled with water. fitting a water trap before it is recommended.
inline pumps are not to bad as they hold very little fuel in them, but most require a filter to protect the pump. i use a 100mic inline pre filter (7").

 

[Rabbid-chop]

Ok, its starting to sound like more trouble than its worth. - I thought the carter pumps were bullet proof - and that they wee designed for WW2 military vehicles?! The one i have has been used with petrol for 12 years and 25k without a drama.

Is there a cheapy i can use without a reg? Is there a reason to need a pump that can supply 4x the fuel the engine can use?

 

[tweak'e]

carters are made for filling up carby fuel bowls. not really meant for feeding injection pumps.
trouble is most of the pumps have non-return regulators which really only work well if pump is matched to the requirements ie its fairly close to whats needed.

the carter is used on the dodge (i think) diesel and the main cause of failure is often the built in regulator leaking.
with a holley pump the regulator is external so you can fix/mod it. but they are very noisy. the carter is not all the quiet either.

with diesels 90+% of the fuel gets pumped back to the tank as its used for cooling.

at the flow rate you require, nothing is cheap and reliable.

the cheap way would be 044 style pump (as not using high pressure quality is not critical) with holley style bypass regulator (there is several brands about 1/2 the price of holley).
add a 60mm(?) diameter pre filter and a double pump bracket (fits 044 pump and filter).
fit a one way valve (cheap) as a bypass in case of failure/starting.

 

[tweak'e]

i forgot, the other pump you can use is an in tank pump. really common to find. just a bugger to fit and i'm not sure on the one way valve setup on it.

 

[Rabbid-chop]

So the 044 is the go? I have one on the shelf. Noisy! Do we really need 300 - odd lph? What pressure does the reg need to be set at?

 

[tweak'e]

not 100% sure on the model.
you want the roller pump rather than the vanes style (different vane to the carter vane pump) as the fine high speed vanes don't work to well with the thicker diesel.
300 liters or so is about right. easy way to tell is pump has 10mm outlet connection which fits out 100mm fuel lines. also being diesel it will pump a bit less than that.
you have to remember lift pump has to pump more than the ip is sucking to be able to generate any pressure.
even at that i think its not enough for the high rpm, which is also why you have the one way valve in parallel so the IP can suck fuel past the lift pump.

pressure, 4 psi or so is fine. i think the reg comes set at that.

the other way is carter black pumps. can't recall if there is a model without reg in it. but they say to use one anyway. they are 15 psi or so. so reg will be closed with an external 4psi reg.
also both reg and pump use 3/8npt fitting so if you can get male/male fitting you can fit the reg straight to the pump. neat and tidy.

otherwise your looking at the gear pumps but they get $$$$.
one setup i do like the look of is the airdog or fass. built in filter, pump and regulator.

 

[Rabbid-chop]

not 100% sure on the model.
you want the roller pump rather than the vanes style (different vane to the carter vane pump) as the fine high speed vanes don't work to well with the thicker diesel.
300 liters or so is about right. easy way to tell is pump has 10mm outlet connection which fits out 100mm fuel lines. also being diesel it will pump a bit less than that.
you have to remember lift pump has to pump more than the ip is sucking to be able to generate any pressure.
even at that i think its not enough for the high rpm, which is also why you have the one way valve in parallel so the IP can suck fuel past the lift pump.

pressure, 4 psi or so is fine. i think the reg comes set at that.

the other way is carter black pumps. can't recall if there is a model without reg in it. but they say to use one anyway. they are 15 psi or so. so reg will be closed with an external 4psi reg.
also both reg and pump use 3/8npt fitting so if you can get male/male fitting you can fit the reg straight to the pump. neat and tidy.

otherwise your looking at the gear pumps but they get $$$$.
one setup i do like the look of is the airdog or fass. built in filter, pump and regulator.

Just in regard to the carter black, you said in an earlier post that the carter by design doesnt like diesel injector pump pulses and the motor being potentially immersed in water? Are the carter black different to the carter gold? Externally they look exactly the same except with bigger fittings?
What about holley pumps - blue, red black, ect. They ok? The exchange rate for american parts is through the roof lately though. Aeroflow do a Holley knock off, wondering if they're any good...

 

[tweak'e]

the basic carter is what the dodge(?) vp44 uses as standard and it has a habit of failing. one of the sites found that it usually the regulator valve in it which fails.

i can't recall now but i think one of the carter models didn't have a built in reg or it may have been its set for such high pressure it never opens.

water in them is not known for issues but something i was looking at on my own one (which failed). simply because the motor is immersed in fuel and it hangs down. so potential for it to trap some water.

holleys have dry motor and the adjustable regulator is on the side, so it can be repaired unlike the carter. however i'm told they are noisy as hell.

no idea on the knock offs.

but EFI pump and a holley bypass regulator would my choice.

i run a carter Carotor on the old hilux, but its a lot lower flow and 8mm line.

 

[Rabbid-chop]

Cheers tweak'e. Might go 044 then. They are cheap enough.
Holley reg like this ok?

Placed after the IP on the return line, yeah? EFI style. Or after the pump on the supply line, with its own separate return line?

Was thinking of just using an inline paper can filter bfore the pump (Z200), pretty much just to save the pump. They alright with diesel?
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[tweak'e]

no, need this...notice the difference ?

https://www.holley.com/products/fue...gulators/carbureted_regulators/parts/12-803BP
you need the bypass style not the dead head.
regulator can go anywhere between pump and main filter (so not on the return line!). you will need to plump a return line in.
you can return to tank or to lift pump inlet.

z200 filter is to small. i used a 100mic stainless steel mesh filter. sold as pre filter for race setups.
needs to have 10mm hose connections. or a proper diesel filter of 100 mic. no point going smaller mic.

pump needs to have 10mm connections. a lot of efi ones are 8mm and will not flow enough.

 

[Rabbid-chop]

Cheers tweake'. Any reason not to put the reg on the existing return line? On the holley website the instructions show three configurations. Dead head, the bypass style you recommend with reg btween pump and "carby"with a separate return line, and the bypass style im talking about with the reg after the"carby" on the return line.

Also, surprised the z200 (10 mm version) is too small - on petrol they can keep up with 044 no worries.
Can you recommend a good diesel filter?
Cheers.

 

[Rabbid-chop]

Also, no i cant spot the difference - I thought that was the bypass reg but must have clicked the wrong one in my half inebriated state - not that i would know the difference at the best of times.. care to enlighten??

 

[tweak'e]

that was the point, you can't tell them apart so watch what you buy.
i understand internally they have different valve setup.

deadhead shuts the valve to reduce pressure while the bypass opens the valve to reduce pressure.

 

[Rabbid-chop]

Ah, ok. What about one of these poofters? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fuel-Man...129756?hash=item1a13ab189c:g:AvYAAOSw9VZXOpXE

Either that or a $30 chinese stainless mesh speedflow knock-off jobbie. Its only really to save the lift pump.

Speaking of which, now I'm leaning towards one of these guys. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Aeroflow...593623?hash=item280fab9017:g:kysAAOSwKtlWltlI Holley knock off. Outflows an 044 by a sh!tload... Decisions, decisions.

 

[tweak'e]

cheapy mesh filter will be fine as long as its big.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fuel-Fil...hash=item2eb8be7380:m:mSHg1RXAr2FUnc3MuDmPafA
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Universa...783633?hash=item1a0bc7a791:g:UsYAAOSwLVZVnKKX

holley knockoff will be loud. no idea on reliability.