D21 Questions, sr conversion

[unkn0wn]

Hi Guys,

I'm new to Navaras, but have been playing with Nissan's for quite some time. I used to own a SWB MQ patrol and it was a blast.

I'm looking to buy a new 4wd and have been toying with the idea of the D21 Navara. My main aim would be to find a 5sp man King cab 4wd model to do a SR20DET conversion with.

From what I understand the Z24i / KA24E / TD272 all run the same gearbox, the 'FS5W71C'.

Question 1) Does this gearbox change at all, ie input shaft length change from engine to engine?

Question 2) do the gear ratios change and what are they (5 speed box)

Question 3) Does the cross member / engine mount location change from model to model?

Question 4) if they remain the same, will a sr20 bolt into the existing transition and existing cross member/engine mounts?

Question 5) if its like the patrol, the diff ratios will change from d to P. Is this true? what are the diff ratio's and which have lsd/open diffs?

Question 6) how much trouble is it to lift a d21 to the point where 33' tyres will fit without hitting?

Thanks guys/girls!

 

[Dave]

I cant remember what gearboxes the SR20's run, but you should be able to get an adapter made up to get the Navara transfer to bolt up.

But if it was me, I would get a YD25 gearbox and transfer and get an adapter made up to bolt up to the SR as the 2wd gearboxes dont hold up well in 4wd aplications.

Dave.

 

[Dion]

Hi Guys

Hi there.

I'm looking to buy a new 4wd and have been toying with the idea of the D21 Navara. My main aim would be to find a 5sp man King cab 4wd model to do a SR20DET conversion with.

The King Cabs look really good. Just the right proportions or something. What would you use the resultant fast 4x4 for?

From what I understand the Z24i / KA24E / TD27 all run the same gearbox, the 'FS5W71C'.

That is correct. SD23, SD25, TD23, TD25, KA24DE, TD27T also. We don't actually get the Z24i down here, just the Z24s single- and twin-spark.

It's a great box in sports cars, but shits its pants at 200,000+ when asked to tow anything behind a torquey motor.

A similar variant lives behind the RB30 VL Commodore engine.

Question 1) Does this gearbox change at all, ie input shaft length change from engine to engine?

Not that I'm aware off but possibly. There are major bellhousing differences between the SD, TD and Z/KA variants.

Question 2) do the gear ratios change and what are they (5 speed box)

Yes. I'm not going to list them all here, there's too many variants between model, engine, 4x2, 4x4 and it would take me too long to look them all up and copy them out. Are you specifically concerned with fifth gear cruising speed or first/second gear takeoff?

Question 3) Does the cross member / engine mount location change from model to model?

Yes. Yes. Not by very much, you could resolve all problems with a welder and a drill. There are grids of holes on the chassis for different mounts and different cross members, it's a matter of either sourcing the right one from Nissan, or making your own. I assume you can fabricate.

Question 4) if they remain the same, will a sr20 bolt into the existing transition and existing cross member/engine mounts?

Likely not on the engine/cross member mounts, but it has been done before in the US I believe. I'd probably have chosen an SR20DET for my petrol Navara if a) engineering wasn't required, and b) a custom sump wasn't required. Who's making your sump for you?

Question 5) if its like the patrol, the diff ratios will change from d to P. Is this true? what are the diff ratio's and which have lsd/open diffs?

Choose from the standard Patrol-style ratios:
4.88:1, 4.625:1, 4.373:1, 3.9:1.

Personally I have worked on:
Diesel/petrol manual 4x4: 4.88, 4.625.
Petrol manual 4x2: 3.9.

There are two different rear diffs fitted at random, the C200 and the H233b. You will recognise both from your MQ days. There could be a LSD in either, it's a bit of a random easter egg hunt as well, you're looking for an orange oil flag tag on the back of the diff. Whilst Nissan LSDs are heavenly, by this age the clutch packs are probably totally f'ed. ARB do a locker for the rear diff only.

Front diff is always an R180A in four pot Navaras.

Question 6) how much trouble is it to lift a d21 to the point where 33' tyres will fit without hitting?

Body lift, bigger offset, bit of trimming and some rubber flares and you're set.

Buy a kit for the body lift, appropriate bolts for the rear body mounts aren't a common size. 50mm alloy barstock for the tub, 80mm alloy barstock for the body if you're getting custom.

 

[unkn0wn]

I cant remember what gearboxes the SR20's run, but you should be able to get an adapter made up to get the Navara transfer to bolt up.

But if it was me, I would get a YD25 gearbox and transfer and get an adapter made up to bolt up to the SR as the 2wd gearboxes dont hold up well in 4wd aplications.

Dave.

Hi Dave, I was hoping the sr20 bell-housing would bolt directly to the Navara gearbox.

What would you use the resultant fast 4x4 for?

Yes. I'm not going to list them all here, there's too many variants between model, engine, 4x2, 4x4 and it would take me too long to look them all up and copy them out. Are you specifically concerned with fifth gear cruising speed or first/second gear takeoff?

Yes. Yes. Not by very much, you could resolve all problems with a welder and a drill. There are grids of holes on the chassis for different mounts and different cross members, it's a matter of either sourcing the right one from Nissan, or making your own. I assume you can fabricate.


Likely not on the engine/cross member mounts, but it has been done before in the US I believe. I'd probably have chosen an SR20DET for my petrol Navara if a) engineering wasn't required, and b) a custom sump wasn't required. Who's making your sump for you?


There are two different rear diffs fitted at random, the C200 and the H233b. You will recognise both from your MQ days. There could be a LSD in either, it's a bit of a random easter egg hunt as well, you're looking for an orange oil flag tag on the back of the diff. Whilst Nissan LSDs are heavenly, by this age the clutch packs are probably totally f'ed. ARB do a locker for the rear diff only.

Front diff is always an R180A in four pot Navaras.

Hi Dion, thank you for all the useful information, I had to trim it down a bit, but ill try to get at all your questions.

I want a ute to carry crap around with. They are so handy, the uses are limitless. I enjoy driving on the beach and doing some bush driving (camping tracks etc). I used to enjoy taking the patrol into mud holes and deep water, but I’m over that, it won’t be happening in the nav (besides patrol was diesel and the nav will be petrol so it will be allergic to water).

Im not aiming for a fast navara, im just not keen on the standard engines. I have a 180sx with a s14 sr20det motor in it and I was thinking of dropping that into a Navara and getting a modified SR for the 180 (funds permitting of cause :/).

Mainly concerned with 4wd low, the sr wont hold any decent torque till around 4krpm and I’d still like to be going slow, not flying along. The patrol 4low was about a 50 percent reduction over H and you could crawl at 1.5krpm and go over almost anything. Does the Navara have the same sort of reduction (50%) or is it more like a Pajero (75%).

Welding / making custom engine mounts would not be an issue. I just don’t want to deal with re doing all the gearbox crap to. Id personally rather it bolted in (hahahaha-keep dreaming). If the KA24 bolts in, then the SR20 will, they have same engine mounts etc.

I read somewhere that someone put in 2inch body lift and did not need to reverse the sump, as there was plenty of clearance. There are 3 or so different sump designs for the sr20, so hopefully one will ‘just work’. If I have to make a reverse sump, then it starts to get put into the ‘to hard’ basket unless our backyard mechanics can engineer one.

If the cross member for the z 2.4 engine and the Ka 2.4 engine are the same then it may ‘just bolt in’. Do we have any knowledge base info on this?

With regards to the diff, I was just curious. I would try to pick a petrol model, to get the correct match with diff ratios. I would most likely reshim the rear lsd and weld up the front. Thats what we did with the patrol and it was practicably unstoppable.

Engineering would be fun, i guess i would need to look into this to. With the upgrade they would most likely want me to have put some effort into upgrading the brakes. Is there any bolt in larger brake upgrades for the Nav, ie patrol rotors and calapers?

Regards,
Christian

 

[Dion]

Im not aiming for a fast navara, im just not keen on the standard engines.

I can relate to that.

Mainly concerned with 4wd low, the sr wont hold any decent torque till around 4krpm and I’d still like to be going slow, not flying along. The patrol 4low was about a 50 percent reduction over H and you could crawl at 1.5krpm and go over almost anything. Does the Navara have the same sort of reduction (50%) or is it more like a Pajero (75%).

2:1. You can get crawler gears from Caloffroad I think it is.

If the KA24 bolts in, then the SR20 will, they have same engine mounts etc.

Good. The KA24 bolts in.

I read somewhere that someone put in 2inch body lift and did not need to reverse the sump, as there was plenty of clearance. There are 3 or so different sump designs for the sr20, so hopefully one will ‘just work’. If I have to make a reverse sump, then it starts to get put into the ‘to hard’ basket unless our backyard mechanics can engineer one.

For that to work, you'd have to lift the lift the engine 2" as well and we're back at custom engine mounts again.

You need a sump that is about 20-30mm tall along its length, except at the back 50-60mm where the sump is about 120mm tall, and 60mm wider than the flange on the right hand side. Weird shape.

If the cross member for the z 2.4 engine and the Ka 2.4 engine are the same then it may ‘just bolt in’. Do we have any knowledge base info on this?

I'm talking about the crossmember for the transmission, are you talking about the same thing? There's no cross member for the engine but the engine can of course influence the position of the transmission in relation to the crossmember mounts. KA24 swaps have been done, including by Pinelli on this forum, without modification to the transmission crossmember. So I guess that's our knowledge base.

With regards to the diff, I was just curious. I would try to pick a petrol model, to get the correct match with diff ratios. I would most likely reshim the rear lsd and weld up the front. Thats what we did with the patrol and it was practicably unstoppable.

Since your proposed motor is small, 4.88 would be a better pick especially on the 33s.

I'd say if you weld an R180a it will die but I'm speculating. They're a tiny diff, is all.

Engineering would be fun, i guess i would need to look into this to. With the upgrade they would most likely want me to have put some effort into upgrading the brakes. Is there any bolt in larger brake upgrades for the Nav, ie patrol rotors and calapers?

Key issues will be emissions and brakes. You'll be fitting the cat from your 180SX (or a close equivalent) to the Navara, almost guaranteed. Provided your SR20DET is unmodified from factory, an engineer will accept that it is emissions compliant as a unit, HOWEVER, and this is big one:

EPA has a specific clause in its guide on vehicle modifications about displacement versus vehicle size, and emissions. It basically states you cannot swap a little motor into a big car, as the small hardworking engine will emit more than a larger engine working easier. The example it uses is something like a VN V6 into a 75 series.
​

A fast-reving 2.0 into a vehicle normally fitted with a 2.4 long stroke tractor motor might be borderline, but you've at least got the right number of cylinders. The EFI will go a long way towards alleviating your engineer's emissions concerns but be prepared for him/her to make you visit your local NATA testing centre and part with $1000/test.

On the brakes:
D22 SII brakes might bolt up. I'm yet to try that combo. Have a look at billybob's GM V6 Navara thread, there's some brake hunting in there. If your particular engineer would be satisfied by a rear drum to disc upgrade, I have a feeling you can use Terrano rear disc brakes on the Navara axle. No concrete evidence though.

 

[Dion]

Mainly concerned with 4wd low, the sr wont hold any decent torque till around 4krpm and I’d still like to be going slow, not flying along. The patrol 4low was about a 50 percent reduction over H and you could crawl at 1.5krpm and go over almost anything.

Ratios for the 4x4 Z24:

-3.657
3.592
2.246
1.415
1.0
0.821

 

[unkn0wn]

I'm talking about the crossmember for the transmission, are you talking about the same thing? There's no cross member for the engine but the engine can of course influence the position of the transmission in relation to the crossmember mounts. KA24 swaps have been done, including by Pinelli on this forum, without modification to the transmission crossmember. So I guess that's our knowledge base.

Sorry mate, when i refer to cross member i mean the one that has the engine mounts. I realise now, that the nav probly does not have a front crossmember like the 180sx. The patrol engine mouts were done directly to the chasis, so i assume thats the same for the Nav?

Key issues will be emissions and brakes. You'll be fitting the cat from your 180SX (or a close equivalent) to the Navara, almost guaranteed. Provided your SR20DET is unmodified from factory, an engineer will accept that it is emissions compliant as a unit, HOWEVER, and this is big one:

EPA has a specific clause in its guide on vehicle modifications about displacement versus vehicle size, and emissions. It basically states you cannot swap a little motor into a big car, as the small hardworking engine will emit more than a larger engine working easier. The example it uses is something like a VN V6 into a 75 series.
​

A fast-reving 2.0 into a vehicle normally fitted with a 2.4 long stroke tractor motor might be borderline, but you've at least got the right number of cylinders. The EFI will go a long way towards alleviating your engineer's emissions concerns but be prepared for him/her to make you visit your local NATA testing centre and part with $1000/test.

Yeah, its will need modification aproval before anything like that where to happen. The basic rule is 20 percent increase in engine weight or power when compared to the vechels factory fitted options.

So even if i get a 2.4l, I can say - the car came out with a 3.0l and it made 155hp acroding to wikki, if we lie and use the updated power for a vg30de of 165hp we are still left with a max HP of 198.

factory sr figgure is around 210, so its just over anyway.

like you said, they may not go for the smaller engine making more power idea, but there is only really one way to find out! I will give them a ring before i do anything like this, i may try call them tomorrow, just so we know.

now emissions, im sure the efi sr turbo could look better than the 2.4 carby emissions wise, but paying the large amount for the test is rediculious.

i have heard, the comercial vechels are not bound to some emission controls and can get away with alot more. so if it cant be licenced as a person car with a sr, perhaps looking into a work/comercial licence for it.

there is allways options i guess.

On the brakes:
D22 SII brakes might bolt up. I'm yet to try that combo. Have a look at billybob's GM V6 Navara thread, there's some brake hunting in there. If your particular engineer would be satisfied by a rear drum to disc upgrade, I have a feeling you can use Terrano rear disc brakes on the Navara axle. No concrete evidence though.

yeah i guess it all comes down to the engerneer, something to think about anyway.

ill def checkout the thread and see what info i can find.

thanks, christian

 

[Dion]

Sorry mate, when i refer to cross member i mean the one that has the engine mounts. I realise now, that the nav probly does not have a front crossmember like the 180sx. The patrol engine mouts were done directly to the chasis, so i assume thats the same for the Nav?

That's right.

Yeah, its will need modification aproval before anything like that where to happen. The basic rule is 20 percent increase in engine weight or power when compared to the vechels factory fitted options.

You should have no issue increasing the power, provided you increase the braking.

like you said, they may not go for the smaller engine making more power idea

That's more what I'm worried about but you're right, wait and see.

now emissions, im sure the efi sr turbo could look better than the 2.4 carby emissions wise

Absolutely.

but paying the large amount for the test is rediculious.

The test will only be to confirm that the emissions comply with the ADRs when the engine is trying to move 3.7T and isn't on boost. Every engineer is different so if you're not happy try someone else.

i have heard, the comercial vechels are not bound to some emission controls and can get away with alot more. so if it cant be licenced as a person car with a sr, perhaps looking into a work/comercial licence for it.

It's always a commercial vehicle (NA category - light goods vehicle) no matter how it's registered, provided that your number of seats, tare and gross vehicle mass remain largely unchanged. It is already and always will be required to comply with a reduced number of ADRs.

Best of luck, keep us posted if you go ahead.

 

[Pinelli]

Engineering would be fun, i guess i would need to look into this to. With the upgrade they would most likely want me to have put some effort into upgrading the brakes. Is there any bolt in larger brake upgrades for the Nav, ie patrol rotors and calapers?

Regards,
Christian

G'day mate, welcome along.

I got a question about the comment above. I don't get why you need the brake upgrade? Sure, you might have a more powerful engine, but the brakes are still trying to stop the same weight of car.

What's the reasoning behind needing bigger brakes?

 

[Dion]

I got a question about the comment above. I don't get why you need the brake upgrade? Sure, you might have a more powerful engine, but the brakes are still trying to stop the same weight of car.

What's the reasoning behind needing bigger brakes?

What's the Z24 redline? 6000rpm? Can't be bothered going out in the rain to check.

SR20DET redline: 7500RPM.

So, notionally right off the bat the vehicle has a 25% higher top speed (down a hill, with a tailwind). Additionally, a SR20DET has more top end torque due to the DOHC and turbocharger, so it is capable of reaching into that higher rev range in top gear, plus potentially it's capable of piling on 150km/h before the next corner much quicker than the Z24 ever was.

Plus 98% of the time the guys who do engine swaps with any performance oriented engine are going to continue building up the car post-engineering, intercoolers, cams, bigger turbo, porting, etc, but none of that stuff will be engineered so at the engine swap stage is the only opportunity the engineers have to catch the build, demand brake upgrades, then let them go on their way and hopefully stop them killing themselves.

So you'll be told you need bigger brakes.

 

[unkn0wn]

Hi Guys,

Spoke with a modification engineer from the DPI today. I explained what I wanted to do and he said it should be fine. he advised that people generally put in bigger engines, but it is permissible to go smaller higher output engines.

I asked about brake upgrades, he said it should not need to have these done, as long as the weight of the Nav does not change much (more weight more braking capasity required).

He said i would need to fill in all the modification forms and get DPI approval to build the thing. Once its done get an engineers approval and then you can have it licensed.

He did not seem to think I would have any issue getting DPI approval for it. He also said he was familiar with the navara and asked if i was going to lift it and fit bigger wheels etc.

If i have to get it engenerd and stuff I would probably do 2inch body and 2inch suspension lift and put larger tires on it. That way when it licenced, its licensed with everything.

Sounds like a lot of effort, but its a good result for the initial start on the project.

 

[Dion]

DPI sound a bit more relaxed than VicRoads, that's something that will work in your favour. Good to hear the outcome. Keep us posted.

 

[unkn0wn]

Hi there.

Choose from the standard Patrol-style ratios:
4.88:1, 4.625:1, 4.373:1, 3.9:1.

Personally I have worked on:
Diesel/petrol manual 4x4: 4.88, 4.625.
Petrol manual 4x2: 3.9.

There are two different rear diffs fitted at random, the C200 and the H233b. You will recognise both from your MQ days. There could be a LSD in either, it's a bit of a random easter egg hunt as well, you're looking for an orange oil flag tag on the back of the diff. Whilst Nissan LSDs are heavenly, by this age the clutch packs are probably totally f'ed. ARB do a locker for the rear diff only.

Front diff is always an R180A in four pot Navaras.

Just thought I would bring this thread back to life.

I bought a Navara and have 'Ca48' written next to the gearbox type on the identification plates.

From what I understand this means i have 4.8:1 gear ratios with a C200 rear diff and a R180A front.

The rear has the LSD sticker on it and appears to be quite tight.

Has anyone swaped over the r180 diff centre with a LSD from another car?
- is this even possible or do you have to buy an aftermarket locker if your sick of the open diff?

Christian